US House Redistricting: New York
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muon2
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« Reply #625 on: March 04, 2012, 12:19:04 AM »

muon, about what's the PVI on your NY-09?

Both 8 and 9 are R+5 as drawn on my map. I wanted to have a road connection from SI to the Rockaways. The greater gains for 8 on my map are to pick up Mill Island and Bergen Beach from CD 11 in exchange for Hispanic areas along the harbor. I can increase the McCain percent by 2 without changing my CD 9.
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NY Jew
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« Reply #626 on: March 04, 2012, 12:29:20 AM »
« Edited: March 04, 2012, 12:31:10 AM by NY Jew »

I have NY-13, which is about tied or R+1, take in only Bay Ridge in Brooklyn, and the Rockaways, Howard Beach, and some of Ozone Park in Queens. Dyker Heights and Bath Beach are in the Jewish district, which is hence probably a little less Jewish than yours, but it means that I was able to get it all the way up to what I'm pretty sure is R+11. I might switch some of Dyker Heights and Bath Beach into the Grimm district and put whatever that Asian area just north-east of Bay Ridge is in with the Jews.
Maybe not the district I did was so rushed (thanks to the Dave's destruction)
that I put Bensonhurst along crosby ave (there are 2 Orthodox Nursing homes there so that can have a major effect) in Grimm's district that make's my map less Jewish then it should be, though I probably have more Jews then you in Kensingston and Borough Park. 
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Nathan
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« Reply #627 on: March 04, 2012, 01:22:26 AM »

NY Jew, would you happen to know anything about southern Williamsburg? Is that heavily Orthodox also? I ask because it's an incongruous patch of McCain territory in North Brooklyn on the maps I'm looking at
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NY Jew
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« Reply #628 on: March 04, 2012, 01:54:50 AM »
« Edited: March 04, 2012, 01:56:29 AM by NY Jew »

NY Jew, would you happen to know anything about southern Williamsburg? Is that heavily Orthodox also? I ask because it's an incongruous patch of McCain territory in North Brooklyn on the maps I'm looking at
yes the Orthodox population is around 80-90% Satmar.

also the patch of light red in Crown Heights is also Orthodox 99% Chabad.
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« Reply #629 on: March 04, 2012, 03:07:34 AM »

Tomorrow after church I think I'll draw and post the ultimate map to piss off NY Jew: Keep all of Borough Park together but put it into a black majority seat.
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Nathan
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« Reply #630 on: March 04, 2012, 03:44:02 AM »

Tomorrow after church I think I'll draw and post the ultimate map to piss off NY Jew: Keep all of Borough Park together but put it into a black majority seat.

That's boringly easy, though. All you have to do is connect it with Flatbush and East Flatbush. I also don't think specifically trying to piss somebody else off is something you should be endeavoring to do right after church.
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NY Jew
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« Reply #631 on: March 04, 2012, 08:12:54 AM »

Tomorrow after church I think I'll draw and post the ultimate map to piss off NY Jew: Keep all of Borough Park together but put it into a black majority seat.
unless your a judge in the case, a member of the legislature or somehow able to convince the court to open it up to the public again why should I care about your antisemitic map?
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Sam Spade
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« Reply #632 on: March 04, 2012, 09:55:23 AM »

Who knows what a court will do if they get to do the map, but you can guarantee that since this is New York, some money will be slipped under the table at some point or some promise made...
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traininthedistance
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« Reply #633 on: March 04, 2012, 11:59:19 AM »

I have NY-13, which is about tied or R+1, take in only Bay Ridge in Brooklyn, and the Rockaways, Howard Beach, and some of Ozone Park in Queens. Dyker Heights and Bath Beach are in the Jewish district, which is hence probably a little less Jewish than yours, but it means that I was able to get it all the way up to what I'm pretty sure is R+11. I might switch some of Dyker Heights and Bath Beach into the Grimm district and put whatever that Asian area just north-east of Bay Ridge is in with the Jews.

"Whatever that Asian area just north-east of Bay Ridge is" is Brooklyn's Chinatown (also sort-of considered part of Sunset Park), and it's arguably the main reason for the continued existence of Velasquez's district: they will raise holy hell if they're not in a district with Manhattan's Chinatown as well, and they seem to prefer being part of an Asian-Hispanic coalition district with Velasquez. 

I continue to maintain that "hipsters" are a coherent CoI which keeps getting unfairly sliced and diced in all of these maps.  There are plenty of white liberals in Brooklyn, why don't they have a seat? Tongue
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Brittain33
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« Reply #634 on: March 04, 2012, 12:52:28 PM »

Tomorrow after church I think I'll draw and post the ultimate map to piss off NY Jew: Keep all of Borough Park together but put it into a black majority seat.
unless your a judge in the case, a member of the legislature or somehow able to convince the court to open it up to the public again why should I care about your antisemitic map?

Please don't throw that word around so lightly. Thank you.
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NY Jew
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« Reply #635 on: March 04, 2012, 02:09:26 PM »

Tomorrow after church I think I'll draw and post the ultimate map to piss off NY Jew: Keep all of Borough Park together but put it into a black majority seat.
unless your a judge in the case, a member of the legislature or somehow able to convince the court to open it up to the public again why should I care about your antisemitic map?

Please don't throw that word around so lightly. Thank you.
It's not lightly anyone who would purposely destroy the Jewish vote like he wants to is a vile anti semite, and I will call him out on it.
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Torie
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« Reply #636 on: March 04, 2012, 02:35:20 PM »
« Edited: March 04, 2012, 02:38:04 PM by Torie »

Tomorrow after church I think I'll draw and post the ultimate map to piss off NY Jew: Keep all of Borough Park together but put it into a black majority seat.
unless your a judge in the case, a member of the legislature or somehow able to convince the court to open it up to the public again why should I care about your antisemitic map?

Please don't throw that word around so lightly. Thank you.
It's not lightly anyone who would purposely destroy the Jewish vote like he wants to is a vile anti semite, and I will call him out on it.

Why are you so sure it is animated by Jew hatred as opposed to securing partisan advantage? How can you be so confident about the motives of people?  Sure one can hypothesize until the cows come home, but to make a flat out assertion is not something that well, a lawyer would do, because the facts just don't support making a clear and convincing case that the motive is in fact based on ethnic animus rather than what is typically the case, which is about getting as many of your team elected as possible.
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Brittain33
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« Reply #637 on: March 04, 2012, 02:46:09 PM »

Tomorrow after church I think I'll draw and post the ultimate map to piss off NY Jew: Keep all of Borough Park together but put it into a black majority seat.
unless your a judge in the case, a member of the legislature or somehow able to convince the court to open it up to the public again why should I care about your antisemitic map?

Please don't throw that word around so lightly. Thank you.
It's not lightly anyone who would purposely destroy the Jewish vote like he wants to is a vile anti semite, and I will call him out on it.

Why are you so sure it is animated by Jew hatred as opposed to securing partisan advantage? How can you be so confident about the motives of people?  Sure one can hypothesize until the cows come home, but to make a flat out assertion is not something that well, a lawyer would do, because the facts just don't support making a clear and convincing case that the motive is in fact based on ethnic animus rather than what is typically the case, which is about getting as many of your team elected as possible.

Right.

When people pack and crack minorities to reduce their voting power, it may be born of callousness or indifference, but it hardly implies hatred. And when you consider the abuses caused by anti-Semitism in the last century alone, the burden of proof is on you as to explain why the fracturing of an Orthodox Jewish (which seems to be how you define "Jewish" here, although no definition of anti-Semitism I know of makes an exception for secular, reform, or conservative Jews, all of whom were targeted by Hitler) community in Brooklyn is an act of hatred rather than one of political alienation, callousness, or simple partisan advantage.

You have to understand, anti-Semitism is such a powerful accusation that we, as Jews (even if you define me out of it, that's fine, I don't care) have a responsibility not to play that card freely when there are plenty of other explanations. Even more so in this case where there's no evidence or even plausibility to your claim.
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Sam Spade
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« Reply #638 on: March 04, 2012, 03:05:18 PM »

"Whatever that Asian area just north-east of Bay Ridge is" is Brooklyn's Chinatown (also sort-of considered part of Sunset Park), and it's arguably the main reason for the continued existence of Velasquez's district: they will raise holy hell if they're not in a district with Manhattan's Chinatown as well, and they seem to prefer being part of an Asian-Hispanic coalition district with Velasquez. 

The real reason why is because Nydia's residence is in the tiny Hispanic enclave near the harbor by Sunset Park.
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muon2
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« Reply #639 on: March 04, 2012, 03:15:35 PM »

"Whatever that Asian area just north-east of Bay Ridge is" is Brooklyn's Chinatown (also sort-of considered part of Sunset Park), and it's arguably the main reason for the continued existence of Velasquez's district: they will raise holy hell if they're not in a district with Manhattan's Chinatown as well, and they seem to prefer being part of an Asian-Hispanic coalition district with Velasquez. 

The real reason why is because Nydia's residence is in the tiny Hispanic enclave near the harbor by Sunset Park.

Is she that compelled to live in the district she represents? Gutierrez hasn't been living in his IL-4 district for some years now, though the new map puts him back within his district boundaries.
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Torie
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« Reply #640 on: March 04, 2012, 03:17:35 PM »

Isn't the special master drawing the maps deliberately being kept in the dark per the judge's order as to where incumbents live?
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NY Jew
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« Reply #641 on: March 04, 2012, 03:17:48 PM »

Tomorrow after church I think I'll draw and post the ultimate map to piss off NY Jew: Keep all of Borough Park together but put it into a black majority seat.
unless your a judge in the case, a member of the legislature or somehow able to convince the court to open it up to the public again why should I care about your antisemitic map?

Please don't throw that word around so lightly. Thank you.
It's not lightly anyone who would purposely destroy the Jewish vote like he wants to is a vile anti semite, and I will call him out on it.

Why are you so sure it is animated by Jew hatred as opposed to securing partisan advantage? How can you be so confident about the motives of people?  Sure one can hypothesize until the cows come home, but to make a flat out assertion is not something that well, a lawyer would do, because the facts just don't support making a clear and convincing case that the motive is in fact based on ethnic animus rather than what is typically the case, which is about getting as many of your team elected as possible.


this answer your question
Mind you by the way I don't have a problem carving up Borough Park either since it's basically the most fascist place in America. A place that votes similar to Iraqi "elections" under Saddam Hussein that is mostly populated by zealots who salivate over murdered Palestinian children and want to massacre Iranians? Terrible terrible place. And that's not even getting started on their views on women...

everything this guy has ever said on this forum regarding Jews screams he's an anti semite.
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Sam Spade
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« Reply #642 on: March 04, 2012, 03:24:04 PM »

Isn't the special master drawing the maps deliberately being kept in the dark per the judge's order as to where incumbents live?

This is New York.  I wouldn't make a sizable bet on that one.
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Sam Spade
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« Reply #643 on: March 04, 2012, 03:25:11 PM »

"Whatever that Asian area just north-east of Bay Ridge is" is Brooklyn's Chinatown (also sort-of considered part of Sunset Park), and it's arguably the main reason for the continued existence of Velasquez's district: they will raise holy hell if they're not in a district with Manhattan's Chinatown as well, and they seem to prefer being part of an Asian-Hispanic coalition district with Velasquez. 

The real reason why is because Nydia's residence is in the tiny Hispanic enclave near the harbor by Sunset Park.

Is she that compelled to live in the district she represents? Gutierrez hasn't been living in his IL-4 district for some years now, though the new map puts him back within his district boundaries.

The residency laws here are really lax, but if you've met Velasquez a number of times, as I have, you would discover that she's as stubborn as a mule (and looks kinda like one too).
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muon2
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« Reply #644 on: March 04, 2012, 03:25:52 PM »

Isn't the special master drawing the maps deliberately being kept in the dark per the judge's order as to where incumbents live?

That's the way I read the order. No political data or incumbent addresses. Seeing that I drew my map the same way, and I only looked at political data afterwards.
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muon2
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« Reply #645 on: March 04, 2012, 03:29:51 PM »

"Whatever that Asian area just north-east of Bay Ridge is" is Brooklyn's Chinatown (also sort-of considered part of Sunset Park), and it's arguably the main reason for the continued existence of Velasquez's district: they will raise holy hell if they're not in a district with Manhattan's Chinatown as well, and they seem to prefer being part of an Asian-Hispanic coalition district with Velasquez. 

The real reason why is because Nydia's residence is in the tiny Hispanic enclave near the harbor by Sunset Park.

Is she that compelled to live in the district she represents? Gutierrez hasn't been living in his IL-4 district for some years now, though the new map puts him back within his district boundaries.

The residency laws here are really lax, but if you've met Velasquez a number of times, as I have, you would discover that she's as stubborn as a mule (and looks kinda like one too).

For Congress the only rule is that they live in the state unless NY believes they can make more stringent conditions than the US Constitution. IL has no congressional residency statutes at all, but we do have members like Rush who have a history of wanting their residence in the district and all possible opponents out. Perhaps Velasquez is from the Rush school of residency.
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Torie
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« Reply #646 on: March 04, 2012, 03:31:57 PM »
« Edited: March 04, 2012, 03:40:01 PM by Torie »

Tomorrow after church I think I'll draw and post the ultimate map to piss off NY Jew: Keep all of Borough Park together but put it into a black majority seat.
unless your a judge in the case, a member of the legislature or somehow able to convince the court to open it up to the public again why should I care about your antisemitic map?

Please don't throw that word around so lightly. Thank you.
It's not lightly anyone who would purposely destroy the Jewish vote like he wants to is a vile anti semite, and I will call him out on it.

Why are you so sure it is animated by Jew hatred as opposed to securing partisan advantage? How can you be so confident about the motives of people?  Sure one can hypothesize until the cows come home, but to make a flat out assertion is not something that well, a lawyer would do, because the facts just don't support making a clear and convincing case that the motive is in fact based on ethnic animus rather than what is typically the case, which is about getting as many of your team elected as possible.


this answer your question
Mind you by the way I don't have a problem carving up Borough Park either since it's basically the most fascist place in America. A place that votes similar to Iraqi "elections" under Saddam Hussein that is mostly populated by zealots who salivate over murdered Palestinian children and want to massacre Iranians? Terrible terrible place. And that's not even getting started on their views on women...

everything this guy has ever said on this forum regarding Jews screams he's an anti semite.

Oh, well that reflects the opinion of one poster about the political and social opinions one one small segment of the Jewish population. That poster posts similar things about  Dutch-Americans in their enclaves, and the LDS, and any other group whose opinions in high percentages he finds execrable. It is not about their ethnicity, it is about their opinions. Is he being perhaps excessively intolerant about that, using hyperbolic language in some instances? Of course in my opinion. But it's not Jew hatred qua Jew hatred.

Let's move on, if we possibly can. Thanks.
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krazen1211
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« Reply #647 on: March 04, 2012, 04:45:54 PM »

Tomorrow after church I think I'll draw and post the ultimate map to piss off NY Jew: Keep all of Borough Park together but put it into a black majority seat.
unless your a judge in the case, a member of the legislature or somehow able to convince the court to open it up to the public again why should I care about your antisemitic map?

Please don't throw that word around so lightly. Thank you.
It's not lightly anyone who would purposely destroy the Jewish vote like he wants to is a vile anti semite, and I will call him out on it.

Why are you so sure it is animated by Jew hatred as opposed to securing partisan advantage? How can you be so confident about the motives of people?  Sure one can hypothesize until the cows come home, but to make a flat out assertion is not something that well, a lawyer would do, because the facts just don't support making a clear and convincing case that the motive is in fact based on ethnic animus rather than what is typically the case, which is about getting as many of your team elected as possible.

As I understand his argument:

The white population in South Brooklyn, which composes of slightly more than a Congressional district, was cracked into 5 (8, 9, 10, 11, 13) when they used to vote Democrat. At the time the current mapping was drawn Al Gore won the area handily.

I wouldn't call it partisanship; rather, there are currently 13 districts in New York City and more than 13 communities that want districts to themselves. So, they picked one to hose.
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« Reply #648 on: March 04, 2012, 06:27:38 PM »

Tomorrow after church I think I'll draw and post the ultimate map to piss off NY Jew: Keep all of Borough Park together but put it into a black majority seat.

That's boringly easy, though. All you have to do is connect it with Flatbush and East Flatbush. I also don't think specifically trying to piss somebody else off is something you should be endeavoring to do right after church.

Well I was kind of being playful there just due to how he's acting over it (as evidenced by the latest reaction as well), just pointing out that it's possible not carve it up and yet still eliminate its influence in voting. Something obviously that many Jewish Democratic leaders in New York wouldn't mind doing obviously. For the record it's even easier to do that with the Russians, that obviously doesn't make such a map an anti-Russian map, or my plan to put Staten Island in a Democratic seat by adding Park Slope an anti-Italian map. The poster in question has also complained about and attacked far more Jews than I have, though he resorts to a sort of No True Scotsman in his definition of anti-Semitism.

Anyway that map is coming up anyway. Though I know it would never pass since many current Democratic incumbents wouldn't like it.
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Nathan
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« Reply #649 on: March 04, 2012, 06:50:10 PM »
« Edited: March 04, 2012, 07:00:16 PM by Nathan »

Well, I didn't even get to church this morning because I have a bad head cold and stayed up all night doing homework, so you're probably marginally more right with God than I am at the moment anyway. Tongue I'm planning to go to Nones on Wednesday instead.

I was playing around with upstate and it's actually possible to make every district along the eastern border pretty likely Democratic most years assuming Bill Owens doesn't get complacent. You just have to make clever use of Westchester, Poughkeepsie, and the Capital District.
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