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« Reply #950 on: March 20, 2012, 01:49:00 am »
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I wouldn't be that sure. Just by plugging in the South Brooklyn numbers on that map I got about 360,000 - but big chunks of that are well outside of the proposed district (they are just too spread). Also, of course, this includes both the Orthodox and the Russians (big chunk of whom are not even halakhikally Jewish, and most of whom have no love lost for the Orthodox) and the others, raising the issue of existence of a "community of interest". And while the Orthodox might be growing, is the entire growth in Brooklyn and does it compensate for the emigration of  all sorts of Jews to the suburbs? Though, perhaps, I'd grant you that it should be possible to gerrymander a Jewish majority district in Brooklyn - and do so even without the Park Slope/Brooklyn Heights folk that you've come to consider goyim because they don't vote the way you like Smiley) But you'd, probably, have to be quite a bit more ingenious about the boundaries, to get rid of the gentiles and the "wrong" Jews.
but many of those areas way out of the jewish district have very few jews
for example I'm sure zip codes 11236 (Canarsie) 16,946 whites and 11239 (Starett City) 5,546 whites according to the 2000 census really effect the 42,900 jews in zip codes 11234 + 11236 + 11239 tremendously.

get it through your head Orthodox jews and Russian Jews live in ethnic enclaves I doubt there are any normal size blocks where non Orthodox or Russian Jews are the majority on the block.
for example the only unsupergerrymandered way to make this more Jewish would be to take in more of Bensonhurst.  Taking in Brooklyn Heights will never make this even close to the 50% number
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« Reply #951 on: March 20, 2012, 01:51:17 am »
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No there would be no VRA violation since the preferred candidate of the black community would clearly win that district.
anti semite I wasn't responding to you the areas he included would make the area much to white to pass muster with the voting rights act (assuming he knows the first thing about where the Orthodox community lives)
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« Reply #952 on: March 20, 2012, 02:20:29 am »
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Sorry if I missed it in an earlier post, but what are the PVIs for final court map?  Also, what is the generally accepted net loss/gain for each party with that map?
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« Reply #953 on: March 20, 2012, 06:28:27 am »

Sorry if I missed it in an earlier post, but what are the PVIs for final court map?  Also, what is the generally accepted net loss/gain for each party with that map?

Here's where I calculated the 2008 results, and where Torie turned it into PVIs based on that election alone.
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« Reply #954 on: March 20, 2012, 12:04:59 pm »
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BTW, I got a great idea for a Jewish district in Brooklyn :)) Take Flatbush, Midwood, Borough Park and even Crown Heights - you can't say we are splitting the Orthodox, can you? Williamsburg's missing - but that's a bit off geographically, hard to get w/ the rest without ugly gerrymanders. Add Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights - these are Jews, as much or more so than the bacon-on-matzo Russians. If you are creative, this would not be much less Jewish, if at all so, than the South Brooklyn version. Pack the rest w/ reliably democratic minority areas and bingo - a reliably Dem district with an Orthodox Jewish pack at its core Smiley) Should be doable Smiley))
that would not come close to half  in order to get to Crown Heights (all bunched up) for example you would have to take in way to many blacks which would never work with the voting rights act and would never take in enough jews to be worth it.  (Williamsburg would be possible if you use the east river)


There is no law that says ALL blacks should be in majority black districts Smiley)) Especially, if we are alleging that we are doing this to avoid disenfranchizing another minority Smiley)) Arguably, the district I propose would concentrate more ORTHODOX Jews than the South Brooklyn district - we are uniting a community of interest. And it is not that easy to argue that the Russian Jews (many of them not even Jewish from the Orthodox standpoing) belong to the same community of interest - their interest in most areas are quite diametrically opposed to those of the Orthodox. That they happen to be part of the same emerging pro-Republican coalition is an accident, based, primarily, on vehement racism, which is de rigueur inside the Russian community.
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« Reply #955 on: March 20, 2012, 12:12:58 pm »
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BTW, I got a great idea for a Jewish district in Brooklyn :)) Take Flatbush, Midwood, Borough Park and even Crown Heights - you can't say we are splitting the Orthodox, can you? Williamsburg's missing - but that's a bit off geographically, hard to get w/ the rest without ugly gerrymanders. Add Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights - these are Jews, as much or more so than the bacon-on-matzo Russians. If you are creative, this would not be much less Jewish, if at all so, than the South Brooklyn version. Pack the rest w/ reliably democratic minority areas and bingo - a reliably Dem district with an Orthodox Jewish pack at its core Smiley) Should be doable Smiley))
that would not come close to half  in order to get to Crown Heights (all bunched up) for example you would have to take in way to many blacks which would never work with the voting rights act and would never take in enough jews to be worth it.  (Williamsburg would be possible if you use the east river)


There is no law that says ALL blacks should be in majority black districts Smiley)) Especially, if we are alleging that we are doing this to avoid disenfranchizing another minority Smiley))
that argument didn't seem to work for jews before.
In addition the only way possible to make a compact majority Jewish district would be to include Brighton Beach and Manhattan Beach.  If you don't realize that it's probably because you have no clue where jews live in NY. 
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« Reply #956 on: March 20, 2012, 12:28:09 pm »
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BTW, I got a great idea for a Jewish district in Brooklyn :)) Take Flatbush, Midwood, Borough Park and even Crown Heights - you can't say we are splitting the Orthodox, can you? Williamsburg's missing - but that's a bit off geographically, hard to get w/ the rest without ugly gerrymanders. Add Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights - these are Jews, as much or more so than the bacon-on-matzo Russians. If you are creative, this would not be much less Jewish, if at all so, than the South Brooklyn version. Pack the rest w/ reliably democratic minority areas and bingo - a reliably Dem district with an Orthodox Jewish pack at its core Smiley) Should be doable Smiley))
that would not come close to half  in order to get to Crown Heights (all bunched up) for example you would have to take in way to many blacks which would never work with the voting rights act and would never take in enough jews to be worth it.  (Williamsburg would be possible if you use the east river)


There is no law that says ALL blacks should be in majority black districts Smiley)) Especially, if we are alleging that we are doing this to avoid disenfranchizing another minority Smiley))
that argument didn't seem to work for jews before.
In addition the only way possible to make a compact majority Jewish district would be to include Brighton Beach and Manhattan Beach.  If you don't realize that it's probably because you have no clue where jews live in NY. 

I happen to be a Russian Jew who spent 9 years in greater New York (admittedly, in the 1990s). Should I tell you where exactly the groceries where I used to buy my bacon are, or will you just believe me? Smiley))

My argument is subtly different Smiley) Anybody, who argues for a Jewish majority district on these grounds would have to be using definition of the Jews that goes against the definition used by the ultra- (and not very ultra) Orthodox. Many of the "Russians" are only Jewish by descent on the male line and/or converted to other faiths. Those who are technically Jewish still, mostly, follow the Jewish law mostly in its breach. Finding a community of interest between them and the Orthodox presents a stretch - more of a stretch, in fact, than finding a community of interest between the Orthodox and the Park Slope or Upper West Side guys. Yes, of course, the Russians and the Orthodox happen to be more of Republican types - but Republican Jews is, most definitely, a not very protectable community Smiley))

The South Brooklyn district removes big chunks of the Orthodox community (Crown Heights and Willamsburg) - so, it fails in its stated objective of uniting a well-defined community of interest. A Central/North Brooklyn district would gather more of the ultra-Orthodox Jews. Of course, it would not take in the Russian Jews - but that's a very distinct community, with its own interests. And it would be quite hard for the Orthodox lawyers to argue otherwise - without abandoning the Halakha, at least Smiley)
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« Reply #957 on: March 20, 2012, 12:29:40 pm »
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BTW, the Jewish sector of the Crown Heights could be incorporated with relatively few blacks - via a salient from Park Slope through the Prospect Park. Not a big deal.
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« Reply #958 on: March 20, 2012, 01:46:42 pm »
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Anyway, it is not hard to draw a district that would include the entire Borough Park, Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights, Midwood Jewish parts of Williamsburg, Crown Heights, Flatbush, etc. - I even got the entire Gravesend and half the Homecrest in (Ocean Parkway is in all the way through to the Belt Parkway) that would be 66.5% Obama (72.1% Dem on average). It's only 9% black - no concern there. 12.9% Hispanic and 11.3% Asian - but you can't draw a Hispanic district from those parts anyway. There is still a lot of stuff I've included for no good reason to pad the Dem margin (such as Red Hook) that could be removed to replace w/ Jewish neighborhoods without making it less than 60% Obama. Of course, once you insist on including Brighton and Manhattan Beach, it would change - but why include those atheist ex-Commies Smiley)?
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« Reply #959 on: March 20, 2012, 01:56:42 pm »
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Pity you guys picked up on the Orthodox Jewish submission. I was going to put up a poll, with all the usual suspects listed, from myself to BRTD to Muon2 to Sbane to NY Jew to Lewis to Brittain33 and so on, and ask who do you think would like the map best. But now the answer has been given away. Sad

Here is their entire map. I got the drf file from the chap who drafted it (except for the 4 northern CD's in the Bronx and Westchester, which a Catholic friend of his drew, because of the press of time). The map has a few "problems," alas, some fixable, but the bleaching out of the Crowley CD might raise a retrogression issue. Hewing to municipal/village lines was not job one either. I quite admire the chutzpah in merging the Mahoney and Nadler CD's, as the white CD to go, in exchange for creating the "Jewish" one in Brooklyn. Tongue

I spoke to the map drawer about 3 times on the phone for a couple of hours. I initiated it because his submission had problems, and I wanted to help him fix them, if possible, even though the filing deadline had passed. By the last conversation, the federal appellate court had rejected his submission, and he want to file a petition to SCOTUS, based on ignoring communities of interest for white people and so forth, particularly Jews, who are the most victimized by hate crimes. It took some time to persuade him that the odds of SCOTUS taking the case were effectively zero.

I must say one party would like this map a whole lot better than the other party. The other party if the appellate court accepted this after making some necessary adjustments, like equalizing population, would have just gone bonkers. The Israel district goes Pub, and Lowey's is down to about Dem +2% in  PVI. (I am not sure, because I had to draw the 4 CD's the Catholic guy drew myself, and the PDF screen shots did not show the Lowey CD's northern perimeter.)  The Lowey CD needs to go farther out anyway, because overall the NYC area CD's about about 50,000-75,000 or something short of population overall.

Oh by the way, the map drawer says he spoke to the Pub Senate majority leader Skelos, and tried to persuade him to leave two Jewish state senate CD's in Brooklyn Queens somewhere alone because in another couple of years both would fall to the Pubs. Skelos said he needed another CD now, rather than two later, so he merged them to get one more sufficiently Pub to flip now. I guess the discount rate on future Pub seats, but not right now, was close to 50% per year of something. Tongue

The guy was fascinating to talk to. He knows the NYC streets like the back of his hand, and who is doing what to whom. I'm sure NY Jew would enjoy talking to him. He agreed that gay marriage did indeed tank Welperin, allowing Turner to win.






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« Reply #960 on: March 20, 2012, 02:24:12 pm »

Pity you guys picked up on the Orthodox Jewish submission. I was going to put up a poll, with all the usual suspects listed, from myself to BRTD to Muon2 to Sbane to NY Jew to Lewis to Brittain33 and so on, and ask who do you think would like the map best. But now the answer has been given away. Sad

Here is their entire map. I got the drf file from the chap who drafted it (except for the 4 northern CD's in the Bronx and Westchester, which a Catholic friend of his drew, because of the press of time). The map has a few "problems," alas, some fixable, but the bleaching out of the Crowley CD might raise a retrogression issue. Hewing to municipal/village lines was not job one either. I quite admire the chutzpah in merging the Mahoney and Nadler CD's, as the white CD to go, in exchange for creating the "Jewish" one in Brooklyn. Tongue

I spoke to the map drawer about 3 times on the phone for a couple of hours. I initiated it because his submission had problems, and I wanted to help him fix them, if possible, even though the filing deadline had passed. By the last conversation, the federal appellate court had rejected his submission, and he want to file a petition to SCOTUS, based on ignoring communities of interest for white people and so forth, particularly Jews, who are the most victimized by hate crimes. It took some time to persuade him that the odds of SCOTUS taking the case were effectively zero.

I must say one party would like this map a whole lot better than the other party. The other party if the appellate court accepted this after making some necessary adjustments, like equalizing population, would have just gone bonkers. The Israel district goes Pub, and Lowey's is down to about Dem +2% in  PVI. (I am not sure, because I had to draw the 4 CD's the Catholic guy drew myself, and the PDF screen shots did not show the Lowey CD's northern perimeter.)  The Lowey CD needs to go farther out anyway, because overall the NYC area CD's about about 50,000-75,000 or something short of population overall.

Oh by the way, the map drawer says he spoke to the Pub Senate majority leader Skelos, and tried to persuade him to leave two Jewish state senate CD's in Brooklyn Queens somewhere alone because in another couple of years both would fall to the Pubs. Skelos said he needed another CD now, rather than two later, so he merged them to get one more sufficiently Pub to flip now. I guess the discount rate on future Pub seats, but not right now, was close to 50% per year of something. Tongue

The guy was fascinating to talk to. He knows the NYC streets like the back of his hand, and who is doing what to whom. I'm sure NY Jew would enjoy talking to him. He agreed that gay marriage did indeed tank Welperin, allowing Turner to win.






Very interesting. I'm also fascinated as to its similarity to the map I tried to submit to the court early in March, but missed the deadline. In Brooklyn one would only have to swap Bay Ridge for Gravesend and Coney Island to essentially have our maps match.

Try it. I'd be interested to see what you come up with. I'm skeptical that you can get it over 50%, especially if we're using VAP, but I'd definitely like to see.

When I tried to eyeball a compact South Brooklyn CD earlier, I was using DRA so it wasn't clear how much of 'white' was Jewish, and also I ended up having to include more Democratic parts of Brooklyn in Grimm's district such that it actually shifts several points Democratic, so it seems likely to me that were you to successfully create the district that you're talking about we'd still end up with only the one Republican CD in the city most years (possibly zero if some hawkish, religiously conservative Jewish Democrat got elected from the hypothetical district that we are discussing).
I don't know how to upload maps on this website.
the key is to move Grimm out of Brooklyn and towards the Rockways
Grimm would be +2
and the New Jewish district would be +9

and in regards to weather or not the there was a Democrat or a Republican though I would prefer a Republican I would vote for someone like Noach Dear, or Dov Hikind way before I would vote for most NY state Republicans.

If you are looking for the Orthodox precincts in DRA, use the option to color by election. They will show up as strongly McCain compared to everything else. Though I was motivated by geography and the black-majority districts, I suspect it would look similar to CD 8 in my map above (reposted here).


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« Reply #961 on: March 20, 2012, 02:31:28 pm »
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How in the world did you plan to sell it, Muon2?  Or did you not do the Westchester and Long Island gerrymanders?  What was your Hispanic percentage for the Crowley CD?
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« Reply #962 on: March 20, 2012, 03:51:49 pm »
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<Adopting an offended Jewish posture> Well, if this map is not designed to SPLIT the Orthodox Jewish vote accross several district, what is it designed to do? Russians ain't Orthodox!
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« Reply #963 on: March 20, 2012, 04:32:39 pm »

How in the world did you plan to sell it, Muon2?  Or did you not do the Westchester and Long Island gerrymanders?  What was your Hispanic percentage for the Crowley CD?

Of course I refrained from the LI/Westchester gerrys. I'm all about county integrity. Smiley For the NYC minority districts I note that the city is 22.2% BVAP and 26.7% HVAP. This would be 2.53 and 3.04 CDs respectively. I provide for three black-majority districts by including a small part of Nassau, and it is designed to make the remainder of Hempstead Town with Long Beach exactly one CD.

I provide for three CDs with a HVAP majority. If the plan is to seriously considered for Hispanic CDs then the HVAP should be large enough to consistently elect a candidate of choice without knowledge of other electoral factors. The proposed plan has only one such CD in The Bronx, with one other CD at 52% and two in the high 40% range. Crowley's success, demonstrates that the upper 40's will not elect a candidate of choice, and Velasquez' success in a neighboring district is presumably due to other factors. My CD 13 and CD 15 are 52% and 63% similar to the court plan. My CD 7 is 57.2% and should be far more likely to elect a candidate of choice for Hispanics than the two sub-50% districts in the court plan. This effectively combines populations in those two sub-50% HVAP districts, and is not retrogression since one of those districts was not electing a candidate of choice.

Here's my original post:

I had hoped to put together a plan for submission last night, but my DRA hung at about 10:30 when I was checking the districts prior to creating a file. But I can still share my work here.

I based my plan on the same model I used in the CA exercise. I started with regions of whole counties that were nearly equal to a whole number of districts:

Southern NY (CD 1-19, +1398)
Northern NY (CD 20-22, -702)
Western NY (CD 23-27, -695)

The regions were divided based on nearly whole counties with at most one town split in a county. Splits were used to get all deviations under 0.1% at the precinct level, and all but two districts are under 300 deviation. This is the resulting map for the state:



Within the NYC area districts were grouped to fit counties as well:
LI (CD 1-4, -37,948)
Queens (CD 5-7, +77,600)
Brooklyn/SI (CD 8-11, +102,600)
Manhattan/Bronx (CD 12-15, +100,151)
Lower Hudson (CD 16-19, -241,005)

Shifts and additional county breaks were made to get 3 Black-majority districts and 3 Hispanic-majority districts. The NYC area map look like this:



Here are the demographics including VAPs over 20%. Estimated PVIs are based on the 2008 Pres using Torie's spreadsheet factor.

LONG ISLAND
CD 1 (Smithtown) W 80.1% [R+2]
CD 2 (Islip) W 66.2% [D+1]
CD 3 (Hicksville) W 71.2% [R+1]
CD 4 (Hempstead) W 64.2% [D+1]

QUEENS
CD 5 (Flushing) W 43.4%, A 33.9% [D+9]
CD 6 (S Jamaica) B 50.4% [D+33]
CD 7 (Corona) H 59.4% [D+30]

BROOKLYN/STATEN ISLAND
CD 8 (Borough Park) W 55.7% A 23.4% [R+5]
CD 9 (Staten Island) W 67.1% [R+5]
CD 10 (East NY) W 23.6%, B 50.2% [D+38]
CD 11 (Flatbush) W 30.6%, B 50.3% [D+38]

MANHATTAN/BRONX
CD 12 (Manhattan) W 64.2% [D+31]
CD 13 (Harlem) B 28.2%, H 52.1% [D+40]
CD 14 (Triboro) W 54.1%, H 23.8% [D+24]
CD 15 (South Bronx) B 29.3%, H 63.1% [D+41]

LOWER HUDSON
CD 16 (Yonkers) W 41.3%, B 29.0%, H 23.3% [D+18]
CD 17 (White Plains) W 67.9% [D+5]
CD 18 (Newburgh) W 75.1% [D+1]
CD 19 (Albany) W 77.3% [D+5]

NORTHERN NY
CD 20 (Schenectady) W 90.0% [R+1]
CD 21 (Utica) W 90.2% [R+2]
CD 22 (Syracuse) W 85.8% [D+3]

WESTERN NY
CD 23 (Binghampton) W 88.9% [D+0]
CD 24 (Niagara Falls) W 91.6% [R+6]
CD 25 (Rochester) W 76.0% [D+6]
CD 26 (Elmira) W 93.1% [R+8]
CD 27 (Buffalo) W 76.5% [D+9]
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« Reply #964 on: March 20, 2012, 04:44:39 pm »
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Pity you guys picked up on the Orthodox Jewish submission. I was going to put up a poll, with all the usual suspects listed, from myself to BRTD to Muon2 to Sbane to NY Jew to Lewis to Brittain33 and so on, and ask who do you think would like the map best. But now the answer has been given away. Sad

Here is their entire map.

Wow, that Staten Island-Ozone Park district is really something else.
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« Reply #965 on: March 20, 2012, 04:48:06 pm »
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Pity you guys picked up on the Orthodox Jewish submission. I was going to put up a poll, with all the usual suspects listed, from myself to BRTD to Muon2 to Sbane to NY Jew to Lewis to Brittain33 and so on, and ask who do you think would like the map best. But now the answer has been given away. Sad

Here is their entire map.

Wow, that Staten Island-Ozone Park district is really something else.

It is no problem. Most folks know how to swim these days. Bridges are just for the physically challenged.
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« Reply #966 on: March 20, 2012, 07:54:53 pm »
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One quick point I would like to make here in the Orthodox Jewish seat argument is that if such a seat is drawn to grant representation specifically to the Orthodox Jewish minority is that for such a seat to do just that, the main premise would be that the seat needs to be drawn so that the Orthodox community is able to elect the representative of their choice. It does not need to be majority Orthodox Jewish. We often use this standard with other minority groups throughout the country in redistricting. Note, I am not arguing that the Orthodox Jewish community is large enough that representation should be legally required, but if it is, the district needs to be drawn so that other groups will not drown out the Orthodox vote. This means that the other groups cannot be too heavily partisan against the Orthodox prefered candidate (which right now seems to be Turner).
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« Reply #967 on: March 20, 2012, 09:38:48 pm »
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Pity you guys picked up on the Orthodox Jewish submission. I was going to put up a poll, with all the usual suspects listed, from myself to BRTD to Muon2 to Sbane to NY Jew to Lewis to Brittain33 and so on, and ask who do you think would like the map best. But now the answer has been given away. Sad

Here is their entire map.

Wow, that Staten Island-Ozone Park district is really something else.

It is no problem. Most folks know how to swim these days. Bridges are just for the physically challenged.

NY had a Rockland-Richmond-Kings district at one time.
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« Reply #968 on: March 20, 2012, 10:17:14 pm »

One quick point I would like to make here in the Orthodox Jewish seat argument is that if such a seat is drawn to grant representation specifically to the Orthodox Jewish minority is that for such a seat to do just that, the main premise would be that the seat needs to be drawn so that the Orthodox community is able to elect the representative of their choice. It does not need to be majority Orthodox Jewish. We often use this standard with other minority groups throughout the country in redistricting. Note, I am not arguing that the Orthodox Jewish community is large enough that representation should be legally required, but if it is, the district needs to be drawn so that other groups will not drown out the Orthodox vote. This means that the other groups cannot be too heavily partisan against the Orthodox prefered candidate (which right now seems to be Turner).

The question I don't understand is how they make a case. To appeal to the federal court they would have to argue that they are a racial or language minority. Religion is not covered by the 15th amendment, and probably by the 1st amendment it can't be used.
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« Reply #969 on: March 20, 2012, 10:22:27 pm »
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One quick point I would like to make here in the Orthodox Jewish seat argument is that if such a seat is drawn to grant representation specifically to the Orthodox Jewish minority is that for such a seat to do just that, the main premise would be that the seat needs to be drawn so that the Orthodox community is able to elect the representative of their choice. It does not need to be majority Orthodox Jewish. We often use this standard with other minority groups throughout the country in redistricting. Note, I am not arguing that the Orthodox Jewish community is large enough that representation should be legally required, but if it is, the district needs to be drawn so that other groups will not drown out the Orthodox vote. This means that the other groups cannot be too heavily partisan against the Orthodox prefered candidate (which right now seems to be Turner).

Do you really think that the Orthodox Jews would elect (Catholic) Turner if it were up to them? He'd loose a primary in any Orthodox-majority district before you can say "Jesus".

Partisan arguments can't be a problem: the courts have repeatedly ruled that it's ok to gerrymander for partisan ends. The problem is dilution of a racial/ethnic/other minority group for the purposes of preventing it from electing the candidate of their choice. It is hard to see how a district that maximizes the concentration of the target group (Orthodox Jews) could be wrong here. It is also hard to see how reducing the proportion of that group in the district (as would be the case in the South Brooklyn district as compared w/ the North-Central Brooklyn district) could help the Orthodox Jews elect the candidate of their choice that would not also be supported by some other major group. Of course, it is simply impossible to get a district in Brooklyn where Orthodox Jews would be able to elect candidate of their choice without them happening to coincide with some other, not Orthodox community - there are simply not enough of them (especially, if we just look at the voting age population).

That's why, any proposed "Orthodox Jewish" district would have to rely at least as strongly on other, non-Orthodox, or even non-Jewish groups to do the trick - the Russians, the Irish, the Italians or whatever. But at that point it becomes a matter of coalition building, not of electing a candidate of the Orthodox Jewish choice. In as much as "candidate of choice" seems to be an euthemism for "one of their own", this is going to fail outright - a proper Hasid won't get elected in such a district (many Russians would, probably, rather vote Dem, as would many of the other elements of this "Republican coalition"). Turner is certainly not one of them, and would not have been their choice if they could decide on their own.

Hence the difficulty with defining the "protected group". The Orthodox Jews simply are not numerous or concentrated enough for a district (unless one finds a way of linking Borough Park and Rockland county in one district Smiley) ). Protecting Jews as such - a group that less than 4 years ago voted, what, 70% for Obama - would not seem to require drawing a Republican district; if anything, that would prevent the Jews at large from electing representatives of their choice. So NY Jew and his kind have invented a new "protected group": Republican Jews - which includes the Orthodox and the Russians (especially the first-generation immigrants among those), but excludes the bulk of the Jews in Manhattan, Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights, etc. For their purposes Bob Turner is a member of this group, while Woody Allen isn't. Fine by me - but they'd have to pursuade Justices Breyer, Ginsburg and Kagan Smiley)))
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« Reply #970 on: March 20, 2012, 10:30:04 pm »
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One quick point I would like to make here in the Orthodox Jewish seat argument is that if such a seat is drawn to grant representation specifically to the Orthodox Jewish minority is that for such a seat to do just that, the main premise would be that the seat needs to be drawn so that the Orthodox community is able to elect the representative of their choice. It does not need to be majority Orthodox Jewish. We often use this standard with other minority groups throughout the country in redistricting. Note, I am not arguing that the Orthodox Jewish community is large enough that representation should be legally required, but if it is, the district needs to be drawn so that other groups will not drown out the Orthodox vote. This means that the other groups cannot be too heavily partisan against the Orthodox prefered candidate (which right now seems to be Turner).

The question I don't understand is how they make a case. To appeal to the federal court they would have to argue that they are a racial or language minority. Religion is not covered by the 15th amendment, and probably by the 1st amendment it can't be used.

Racial minority. Hm.... has a nasty tinge when applied to Jews, don't you think so? Are Jews a race? Linguistic minority sounds better. It would work for the Hassidim - many of them, especially the Satmars, I believe, are still largely Yiddish-speaking. Might be more trouble w/ other Orthodox, though, (do they still speak much Yiddish in Lithuanian yeshivas? I don't know), if we take the current linguistic situation, but, probably, could be argued by descent for most Ashkenazic Jews in Brooklyn, including almost all the ex-Soviets (the Bukharans and the Georgians, whose ancestors have never been Yiddish-speaking, are, mostly, in Queens). It would, of course, exclude the Sephardim, unless that common language is defined as Hebrew - which would, in all frankness, exclude the Russians Smiley) But Sephardim are not so big in Brooklyn (though, of course, present), so, I guess, it is fine. So, the ultimate irony: the despised "jargon" would, probably, serve best as the identifier for the group to be protected Smiley))) As somebody who has a fair deal of sentimental attachment for the language of Sholom Aleykhem, I'd be thrilled Smiley)))  

Of course, the problem then would be how to avoid including all those liberal Manhattan/Park Slope Jews, who would be as much part of the same community (you can't exclude them by only considering current Yiddish-speakers, as that would exclude the Russians as well). If you include them, it becomes unclear why the protected group should be electing a Republican, if it is, mostly, Democratic Smiley) But then the same problem would be even more acute if the racial argument were to be used. Tough....
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 10:37:26 pm by ag »Logged

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« Reply #971 on: March 20, 2012, 10:34:20 pm »
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The question I don't understand is how they make a case. To appeal to the federal court they would have to argue that they are a racial or language minority. Religion is not covered by the 15th amendment, and probably by the 1st amendment it can't be used.

Imagine getting it up to the Supreme Court and arguing it in front of the current roster of the Justices Smiley))

Justice Ginsburg: "Would, say, some of us present here be considered a part of the same protected minority".

NY Jew: "With all due respect, justice, I would say that this minority is defined not merely in terms of ancestral usage of Yiddish, but in terms of current cultural practice and personal identification".

Justice Kagan "Are you suggesting that myself and Justice Ginsburg are not Jewish?"

NY Jew: "I wouldn't say that. But, the self-hating Jews might as well be considered anti-semites, and, so, definitely, would not be part of the protected minority. Then, of course, come to think about this, as the example of Bob Turner shows, Justice Scalia might well be part of it".

I just can imagine it. It would be a great show Smiley)
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« Reply #972 on: March 20, 2012, 10:39:04 pm »
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Pity you guys picked up on the Orthodox Jewish submission. I was going to put up a poll, with all the usual suspects listed, from myself to BRTD to Muon2 to Sbane to NY Jew to Lewis to Brittain33 and so on, and ask who do you think would like the map best. But now the answer has been given away. Sad

Here is their entire map.

Wow, that Staten Island-Ozone Park district is really something else.

It is no problem. Most folks know how to swim these days. Bridges are just for the physically challenged.

NY had a Rockland-Richmond-Kings district at one time.

That could be great for the Orthodox Jews! Well, I guess, it would have to be drawn along the Hudson, because if it takes any significant population on Manhattan, there is a way of making it Jewish, but no way of making it Republican Smiley))
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« Reply #973 on: March 20, 2012, 11:40:27 pm »
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During what period was that district drawn like that?
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« Reply #974 on: March 21, 2012, 12:28:13 am »
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One quick point I would like to make here in the Orthodox Jewish seat argument is that if such a seat is drawn to grant representation specifically to the Orthodox Jewish minority is that for such a seat to do just that, the main premise would be that the seat needs to be drawn so that the Orthodox community is able to elect the representative of their choice. It does not need to be majority Orthodox Jewish. We often use this standard with other minority groups throughout the country in redistricting. Note, I am not arguing that the Orthodox Jewish community is large enough that representation should be legally required, but if it is, the district needs to be drawn so that other groups will not drown out the Orthodox vote. This means that the other groups cannot be too heavily partisan against the Orthodox prefered candidate (which right now seems to be Turner).

The question I don't understand is how they make a case. To appeal to the federal court they would have to argue that they are a racial or language minority. Religion is not covered by the 15th amendment, and probably by the 1st amendment it can't be used.
European languages are not covered, so they would have to claim that they speak Hebrew at home, rather than Yiddish, and then encourage people to say they can only speak English "well" (the census found that too many people were saying they could speak English "well", so that the language test is less than "very well").  Since the standard is based on both numbers 10,000 or a percentage, they could start by getting Hebrew-language ballots in Brooklyn.
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