The kind of people we are dealing with
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Author Topic: The kind of people we are dealing with  (Read 6148 times)
Shira
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« on: November 11, 2004, 01:04:46 PM »
« edited: November 11, 2004, 01:14:19 PM by Shira »

"According to this argument, the values voters the Democrats must pander to are people like Cary and Tara Leslie, archetypal Ohio evangelical "Bush votes come to life" apotheosized by The Washington Post right after Election Day. The Leslies swear by "moral absolutes," support a constitutional ban on same-sex marriage and mostly watch Fox News. Mr. Leslie has also watched his income drop from $55,000 to $35,000 since 2001, forcing himself, his wife and his three young children into the ranks of what he calls the "working poor." Maybe by 2008 some Democrat will figure out how to persuade him that it might be a higher moral value to worry about the future of his own family than some gay family he hasn't even met."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/14/arts/14rich.html?pagewanted=1&oref=login
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angus
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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2004, 01:13:23 PM »

Campaign's over, sweetie.  Give it a rest, would ya?


I seen you 'round for a long long time
I really 'membered you when you drink my wine

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?

I seen you walkin' down in Chinatown
I called you but you could not look around

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?

I bring my money to the welfare line
I see you standing in it every time

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?




The color of your skin don't matter to me
As long as we can live in harmony

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?

I'd kinda like to be the President
so I can show you how your money's spent

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?

Sometimes I don't speak too bright
but yet I know what I'm talking about

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?

I know you're working for the CIA
they wouldn't have you in the Mafia

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
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Shira
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« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2004, 01:19:57 PM »

Campaign's over, sweetie.  Give it a rest, would ya?


I seen you 'round for a long long time
I really 'membered you when you drink my wine

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?

I seen you walkin' down in Chinatown
I called you but you could not look around

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?

I bring my money to the welfare line
I see you standing in it every time

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?




The color of your skin don't matter to me
As long as we can live in harmony

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?

I'd kinda like to be the President
so I can show you how your money's spent

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?

Sometimes I don't speak too bright
but yet I know what I'm talking about

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?

I know you're working for the CIA
they wouldn't have you in the Mafia

Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?
Why can't we be friends?


This Leslie phenomena does not worry you?
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A18
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« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2004, 01:22:39 PM »

Does it worry you that the majority of Kerry's voters think the rich pay a lower percentage of their income than the middle class?
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J. J.
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« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2004, 01:28:16 PM »


This Leslie phenomena does not worry you?

Shira, I realize this is hard for you to comprehend, but a lot of people do not make judgments solely on the basis of income.
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Ben.
Ben
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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2004, 01:31:40 PM »


This Leslie phenomena does not worry you?

Shira, I realize this is hard for you to comprehend, but a lot of people do not make judgments solely on the basis of income.

I worry about some of the folks in my party, some of the liberals only see the Blue-Dogs and the DLC as means to an end, its about time the moderates started fighting back, had the likes of Carson, Knowles and John it would have been much easier... well to work!     
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Shira
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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2004, 01:38:48 PM »
« Edited: November 11, 2004, 01:42:42 PM by Shira »


This Leslie phenomena does not worry you?

Shira, I realize this is hard for you to comprehend, but a lot of people do not make judgments solely on the basis of income.

I worry about some of the folks in my party, some of the liberals only see the Blue-Dogs and the DLC as means to an end, its about time the moderates started fighting back, had the likes of Carson, Knowles and John it would have been much easier... well to work!     
Could you bring one single position of Kerry that could be titled “Extreme”?
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A18
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2004, 01:43:18 PM »

Letting social security go bankrupt without doing anything to fix it.
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Mikem
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2004, 01:52:57 PM »
« Edited: November 11, 2004, 02:05:19 PM by Mikem »

Extreme, how about voting not to ban partial-birth.  That is pretty extreme in my book.

The entire concept that someone looses income and it is the presidents fault is absolutely absurd and flawed.  No president has ever got me hired or fired, nor have they gotten me a pay raise or cut.  All those things happened either because of my actions or market forces.  To really believe that someone's income drops $20k and that it was the presidents fault, well that must be a very "special" person to believe such nonsense.  On the other hand, that was what the entire Kerry campaign was pretty much based on, so I guess there are a lot of special people out there.  If you believe that the president controls your employment, 1) you are just looking for a cop out, and way to not blame yourself for lack of marketable skills, or 2) you have absolutely no understanding of the forces at play on the market.

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Shira
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2004, 01:58:03 PM »

Letting social security go bankrupt without doing anything to fix it.

That’s your spin on his position. When did he say that he is going to let SS go bankrupt? The Conservatives ideologically hated the SS since its foundation by FDR. They know that they can not kill it in one shot, so they are trying the gradual approach. 
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angus
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2004, 02:27:41 PM »


This Leslie phenomena does not worry you?

Fair enough.  Of course it is off-putting.  I regard myself as something of a centrist, and mostly what I look for in a candidate is evidence that he/she would be good in that job.  For that reason I voted to re-elect John Kerry to the US senate in 1996.  And for the same reason I supported Bill Clinton for President in 92 and 96, and George Bush more recently. 

But that's not what your original post is about.  It seems to be predicated on the idea that those who don't vote for the same reasons that I do are under some stark misimpression.  I have repeatedly suggest on this forum that this narrow-mindedness is not at all good for our country, either morally or, more importantly, economically.  You make a good point that sometimes folks potentially vote in a way that isn't apparently in their economic best interests.  But you fail to realize what, exactly, their economic best interests are.  Leslie may very well think that Bush had nothing to do with his economic plight.  There's an argument both ways.  And when folks can vote their conscience, without fear of reprisal from people who are bound and determined to see things go their way, then we can begin to have the kind of honest, open dialogue which will better our people.  Until the DNC realizes that sometimes nice people simply disagree, they are likely to be a minority party.  I'm not saying that the GOP is any less stubborn, but, as a matter of simple fact, that sort of stubbornness works for them.  When dems try that narrow-minded schtick, it just looks intolerant.  It's a subtle point, and goes to Nationalism.  One expects a nationalist to be stubborn, and that demographic to which stubbornness would naturally appeal is likely to be traditionalistic at heart.  But that demographic to which fluidity of morality would appeal is much less likely to be swayed by the rantings of the likes of George Soros, Michael Moore, et al, who try to convince the Leslies of the world that they are simply not smart enough to make choices for themselves.

We have found ourselves in a truly awkward position wherein the Democrats have become downright undemocratic (elitist even!)  Somewhere Daniel Elazar must be rolling over in his grave.  n'est ce-pas?

My only point to you was that you seem to still be in campaign mode.  It's really over this time.  No Palm Beach County recounts, no famously quoted Al Gore "snippy" remarks.  No supreme court.  What is it you're looking for?  A fight?  then, by all means, go right ahead with what you're doing.  But if you're looking for stability, economic progress, and general prosperity, then put aside the prosyletizing, and get on with the constructive criticism that democracy demands.
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opebo
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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2004, 02:46:57 PM »

Shira, you're absolutely right.  America is being infiltrated by a mental deficiency - born again christianity, and all the hatred and intolerance that goes with it.  I suppose one should take some satisfaction that these fools are being impoverished by their own intolerance.  Hilarious Smiley

Angus - these are not 'nice people'.  And there's nothing narrow-minded about condemning a hate-filled religious fanatic when you see one.
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angus
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2004, 02:59:04 PM »

hate-filled being the operative phrase.

I know some seriously religious people, and you can't honestly put them in the same little box as the Crusaders and the Jihadists.  In fact, those radicals, whether Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, etc., are not representative of "the religious" at all.  Ralph Reed full of hate?  Maybe, but probably not.  Rabbi Lerner?  doubtful.  Mother Theresa?  I doubt it. 

You're really smart enough to know all this, though you pretend otherwise.
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Engineer
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2004, 03:12:55 PM »

Philip,Shira is right about John Kerry and Social Security.  He has a plan for SS, just visit his website.  His plan is to grow the economy and cut the deficit.  Neither of those will help SS unless your use money from federal income tax, since SS is a separate tax.  No matter who tackles the SS problem, you have to take money from federal taxes to keep it solvent.  So I guess John Kerry's plan is no plan.

Opedo, you never cease to amaze me.  You have so much hatred towards Christians; but I suppose yours is righteous anger, and therefore okay.  

Is it okay to condemn a hate filled fanatic?  Or must religion be part of the equation before condemnation is acceptable?
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StatesRights
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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2004, 04:53:23 PM »

Opebo talking about tolerance!! LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
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Angel of Death
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« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2004, 03:39:45 PM »

Says the person who has the Stars and Bars in his sig.
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StatesRights
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« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2004, 06:19:41 PM »

Says the person who has the Stars and Bars in his sig.

Angel of Lameness,

Do we really need to go over this AGAIN?
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jfern
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« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2004, 06:41:28 PM »

Does it worry you that the majority of Kerry's voters think the rich pay a lower percentage of their income than the middle class?

They do at the state level.
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J. J.
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« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2004, 06:50:40 PM »

Does it worry you that the majority of Kerry's voters think the rich pay a lower percentage of their income than the middle class?

They do at the state level.

We are not talking about the state level.
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Jake
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« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2004, 02:01:00 PM »

Does it worry you that the majority of Kerry's voters think the rich pay a lower percentage of their income than the middle class?

They do at the state level.

Because presidents control state taxes

^^^^^^
these are the people we're dealing with Tongue
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