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Author Topic: Marokai Blue/Purple State for Atlasia, Campaign HQ  (Read 11475 times)
Duke
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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2011, 01:51:35 am »
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God, the term limit policy is threatening my job security, and I don't want to become unemployed during these economic times. How can this ticket support such a job killing measure, and what benefits will I receive when I'm forced to leave office? Did we extend unemployment? Wink

If cushy unemployment packages for ex-Senators is the compromise we'll need to make, I'll consider it. Tongue

You'll see the pitchforks come out otherwise... Tongue
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2011, 01:55:27 am »
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The point is that it's definitely possible to make it without ever holding office on the regional level, but it's far more difficult & highly luck-based. It's easier if you are established on the forum at-large, but I don't think that should be a requirement to starting a political career in Atlasia.

Certainly not.
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« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2011, 02:09:32 am »
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Thanks, Purple State.

Yes, as he said, these are consecutive term limits. It would be silly to conflate consecutive and non-consecutive term limits. There's a simple problem with the Senate: It elects much of the same people over and over again, and this ultimately leads in the long term to much more stagnation and inactivity and predictability than there would be other wise.

If people actually want the Senate to get more interesting, there are very few ways to do that, considering the reactions most people have to changing the way people are elected. One of the simplest solutions would be to just tell people that there's a two-term-consecutive limit. It cycles new people in consistently and keeps things more fresh. People talk and talk about the problem, but no one really wants to entertain how to fix it. We've just got to man-up and talk about the solutions, and that's one of 'em.

And really, it's the least directly impacting and inconvenient, when you think about it. A Senator has a term of 4 months. Setting the consecutive limit at 2 means that Senator can hold office for 8 whole months. I really don't think that's so unfair given the nature of Atlasia. They set out of office for a term and then they can get back in the game, if they can prove to people they deserve to be in over the people that replaced them. It's good for keeping the wheels moving and deserves discussion, I think.

(And thanks for all the support from the people who've endorsed us. And I take delight in Yankee's distress Tongue)

I am not the one who is in the distress. Tongue I suggest you reread my statement for alternate potential meanings that you have appearently overlooked.

Unfortunately it is not the only thing "being overlooked" in this discussion.
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« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2011, 02:19:06 am »
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I should have drank the whole bottle last night, I knew it. Unfortunately it was non-alcoholic of course so it would have only served to make me sicker now. oh well!

Oh don't lie Yank, you loved it the first time. I promise it will go down just as smoothly the second. Wink
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« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2011, 02:41:59 am »
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I should have drank the whole bottle last night, I knew it. Unfortunately it was non-alcoholic of course so it would have only served to make me sicker now. oh well!

Oh don't lie Yank, you loved it the first time. I promise it will go down just as smoothly the second. Wink

Of course, I loved it the first time, but that is always the case for the spectator watching from afar isn't it. Such is not the case for those down in ring. Tongue
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« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2011, 02:45:20 am »
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I should have drank the whole bottle last night, I knew it. Unfortunately it was non-alcoholic of course so it would have only served to make me sicker now. oh well!

Oh don't lie Yank, you loved it the first time. I promise it will go down just as smoothly the second. Wink

Of course, I loved it the first time, but that is always the case for the spectator watching from afar isn't it. Such is not the case for those down in ring. Tongue

My spidey-sense tells me you're running...as Tmth's VP pick? Maybe that's more wishful thinking than anything else, but I hope I'm right. It's been a while since we had a good ol' fashioned policy brawl and it would sure make the Vice Presidential debates more fun.

EDIT note: And yes, I would really like multiple debates in this campaign, among the presidential candidates and vice presidential candidates. The sooner we can set these up the better.
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« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2011, 04:06:11 am »
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     As for the term limits proposal, there's a fifth-term Senator right now who happens to be the primary reason the Senate is even functioning at all at this point. Sounds great on paper, slightly less so in practice. Tongue
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2011, 05:10:21 am »
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     As for the term limits proposal, there's a fifth-term Senator right now who happens to be the primary reason the Senate is even functioning at all at this point. Sounds great on paper, slightly less so in practice. Tongue

Yankee is moving the Senate along because he's Yankee. It has nothing to do with him being a fifth-term Senator. You and I both know he's the exception. It's impossible to make the Senate more interesting and functional, and get new people in the game at all, when the same people dominate the positions of the game time and time again.

Consecutive term limits alone won't solve that problem, but they're one of the crucial pieces in doing so. I think serving 8 months is plenty of time for someone to be a Senator. Hell, I was PPT and passed a ton of legislation as Senator, and I didn't even serve 8 months myself.

I mean, the way I see it, we either do something to actually change the way the Senate operates and the people in it, or we just stop complaining altogether. People lose alot of credibility when their rallying cry is "The Senate is inactive and sucks!" but when people brainstorm, they just sort of quietly mumble "But I don't really wanna do anything about it and stuff.." It's hard to take direct action and change people's behavior, but we have no room to talk if we do nothing beyond crossing our fingers.
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« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2011, 05:25:53 am »
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     As for the term limits proposal, there's a fifth-term Senator right now who happens to be the primary reason the Senate is even functioning at all at this point. Sounds great on paper, slightly less so in practice. Tongue

Yankee is moving the Senate along because he's Yankee. It has nothing to do with him being a fifth-term Senator. You and I both know he's the exception. It's impossible to make the Senate more interesting and functional, and get new people in the game at all, when the same people dominate the positions of the game time and time again.

Consecutive term limits alone won't solve that problem, but they're one of the crucial pieces in doing so. I think serving 8 months is plenty of time for someone to be a Senator. Hell, I was PPT and passed a ton of legislation as Senator, and I didn't even serve 8 months myself.

I mean, the way I see it, we either do something to actually change the way the Senate operates and the people in it, or we just stop complaining altogether. People lose alot of credibility when their rallying cry is "The Senate is inactive and sucks!" but when people brainstorm, they just sort of quietly mumble "But I don't really wanna do anything about it and stuff.." It's hard to take direct action and change people's behavior, but we have no room to talk if we do nothing beyond crossing our fingers.

     I did not mean to suggest that the length of his tenure was at all relevant. Rather, I meant to suggest that any change that would deprive the Senate of his continued leadership would be unfortunate. I sort of doubt that this change would be that crucial to making the Senate more active, though, as opposed to just creating a reasonable activity requirement for Senators that actually has a basis in the requirement.
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« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2011, 05:31:03 am »
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     As for the term limits proposal, there's a fifth-term Senator right now who happens to be the primary reason the Senate is even functioning at all at this point. Sounds great on paper, slightly less so in practice. Tongue

Yankee is moving the Senate along because he's Yankee. It has nothing to do with him being a fifth-term Senator. You and I both know he's the exception. It's impossible to make the Senate more interesting and functional, and get new people in the game at all, when the same people dominate the positions of the game time and time again.

Consecutive term limits alone won't solve that problem, but they're one of the crucial pieces in doing so. I think serving 8 months is plenty of time for someone to be a Senator. Hell, I was PPT and passed a ton of legislation as Senator, and I didn't even serve 8 months myself.

I mean, the way I see it, we either do something to actually change the way the Senate operates and the people in it, or we just stop complaining altogether. People lose alot of credibility when their rallying cry is "The Senate is inactive and sucks!" but when people brainstorm, they just sort of quietly mumble "But I don't really wanna do anything about it and stuff.." It's hard to take direct action and change people's behavior, but we have no room to talk if we do nothing beyond crossing our fingers.

     I did not mean to suggest that the length of his tenure was at all relevant. Rather, I meant to suggest that any change that would deprive the Senate of his continued leadership would be unfortunate. I sort of doubt that this change would be that crucial to making the Senate more active, though, as opposed to just creating a reasonable activity requirement for Senators that actually has a basis in the requirement.

I considered some sort of activity requirement when I was brainstorming a few weeks back, but there's no activity requirement for a Senator that I could think of that could be both reasonably implemented to have a real impact, and that would be realistic. What would we do, make people introduce a minimum amount of legislation, post a minimum amount of times in the Government board? It doesn't really get to the heart of the problem and you really can't just force people to debate if they have no desire to do it.

The only requirement I could think of would be some sort of Amendment that would expel a Senator if they miss x number of votes. But it's a pretty harsh idea that would either end up being so weak it doesn't actually make a difference, or it would expel people who were away for the weekend, or some sort of equivalent.

Any solution has to keep in mind that Atlasia can't be made to be someone's second job. Things should be tough, but still fair and give room for people to actually enjoy being a Senator. I don't want to make the job hell for people. Tongue
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« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2011, 05:39:07 am »
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     As for the term limits proposal, there's a fifth-term Senator right now who happens to be the primary reason the Senate is even functioning at all at this point. Sounds great on paper, slightly less so in practice. Tongue

Yankee is moving the Senate along because he's Yankee. It has nothing to do with him being a fifth-term Senator. You and I both know he's the exception. It's impossible to make the Senate more interesting and functional, and get new people in the game at all, when the same people dominate the positions of the game time and time again.

Consecutive term limits alone won't solve that problem, but they're one of the crucial pieces in doing so. I think serving 8 months is plenty of time for someone to be a Senator. Hell, I was PPT and passed a ton of legislation as Senator, and I didn't even serve 8 months myself.

I mean, the way I see it, we either do something to actually change the way the Senate operates and the people in it, or we just stop complaining altogether. People lose alot of credibility when their rallying cry is "The Senate is inactive and sucks!" but when people brainstorm, they just sort of quietly mumble "But I don't really wanna do anything about it and stuff.." It's hard to take direct action and change people's behavior, but we have no room to talk if we do nothing beyond crossing our fingers.

     I did not mean to suggest that the length of his tenure was at all relevant. Rather, I meant to suggest that any change that would deprive the Senate of his continued leadership would be unfortunate. I sort of doubt that this change would be that crucial to making the Senate more active, though, as opposed to just creating a reasonable activity requirement for Senators that actually has a basis in the requirement.

I considered some sort of activity requirement when I was brainstorming a few weeks back, but there's no activity requirement for a Senator that I could think of that could be both reasonably implemented to have a real impact, and that would be realistic. What would we do, make people introduce a minimum amount of legislation, post a minimum amount of times in the Government board? It doesn't really get to the heart of the problem and you really can't just force people to debate if they have no desire to do it.

The only requirement I could think of would be some sort of Amendment that would expel a Senator if they miss x number of votes. But it's a pretty harsh idea that would either end up being so weak it doesn't actually make a difference, or it would expel people who were away for the weekend, or some sort of equivalent.

Any solution has to keep in mind that Atlasia can't be made to be someone's second job. Things should be tough, but still fair and give room for people to actually enjoy being a Senator. I don't want to make the job hell for people. Tongue

     How about combining that suggested requirement with the current one? Expel someone if they miss all votes for 10 or 14 or however many days, unless of course the number of votes is less than some reasonable minimum (say five). That way they don't have to debate, but they also have to actually show up to engage in critical matters of Senate business.
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« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2011, 06:17:38 am »
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You've got my endorsement!


Provided you give me a job Tongue
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« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2011, 07:34:06 am »
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Awesome, glad I'll be outta here before the elections!
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« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2011, 07:35:10 am »
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Please remember to have your VP declare he is running.

Ideally, you should post the entire ticket that is running and both members should certify they are indeed running on said ticket. Since "tickets" are elected and not people, you could technically run a multitude of combos (expanded in ben's thread if you are curious)
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« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2011, 10:08:46 am »
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Best of luck to you, Marokai. Smiley
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« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2011, 10:32:51 am »
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Good Luck guys.
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Purple State
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« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2011, 11:01:49 am »
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     As for the term limits proposal, there's a fifth-term Senator right now who happens to be the primary reason the Senate is even functioning at all at this point. Sounds great on paper, slightly less so in practice. Tongue

I think the point of the proposal is that if it were implemented, you wouldn't need someone like Yank to keep things going in the first place. The Senate as a whole would become more active because players wouldn't burn out. So while you may lose someone like Yank (for a few months), you also have no need for his ability to keep the Senate scraping along.
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Duke
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« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2011, 11:51:03 am »
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I'll preface by saying I am trying to save my job, but the way I see it, term limits are impractical because we don't have enough people who are genuinely interested in holding office to have a turnover every two terms. If it is just two consecutive terms, then we'll have a lot of senators who are placeholders for one term until the former senator forced out of office is allowed to run again. That's harmful to the game if he start down that road. The system in place today is not a bad one. It isn't the fault of the senators that some inactive people are elected to office simply due to party affiliation while other active senators are kicked out for that very same reason. just food for thought.
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Duke
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« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2011, 11:58:38 am »
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     As for the term limits proposal, there's a fifth-term Senator right now who happens to be the primary reason the Senate is even functioning at all at this point. Sounds great on paper, slightly less so in practice. Tongue

I think the point of the proposal is that if it were implemented, you wouldn't need someone like Yank to keep things going in the first place. The Senate as a whole would become more active because players wouldn't burn out. So while you may lose someone like Yank (for a few months), you also have no need for his ability to keep the Senate scraping along.

I can think of at least 2 regional senate elections where active candidates or incumbents were kicked out for less than active replacements. That certainly didn't help the game at all. Imagine if that happened everywhere, and Yankee also was barred from running, what would happen then? I don't think this proposal would work as flawlessly as it sounds.
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« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2011, 01:01:56 pm »
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I should note right here that the proposal is only in a rough draft form that will benefit from these kinds of debate. We appreciate your willingness to push us on this because it helps us think through it all.

So is the idea flawless? Certainly not. But we also think it has considerable merit Duke. The system we have now is pretty darn broken. I'm not sure what exactly changed from a year or two ago, when Senate debate was extremely lively and productive. But the Senate really has become the place that voters send people to be ignored for four months. Do you have ideas on how to make some kind of term limits proposal work? Do you have other ideas to improve the Senate? This campaign relies on your input, so shoot me a PM if you have anything you want to discuss.

Between a debate on term limits, revising the legislative slots system and a broader look at the OSPR, I think we can make the Senate fun again, both for the senators there and those who aspire to higher office. That certainly won't happen without having the discussion though.
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« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2011, 04:09:46 pm »
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Perfect ideas or no, I'm actually kind of proud that the first thing that causes argument and pages of posts in our campaign thread is one of our proposed ideas. That's exactly the sort of reaction I wish we had more of around here. Tongue
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« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2011, 04:13:34 pm »
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     As for the term limits proposal, there's a fifth-term Senator right now who happens to be the primary reason the Senate is even functioning at all at this point. Sounds great on paper, slightly less so in practice. Tongue

I think the point of the proposal is that if it were implemented, you wouldn't need someone like Yank to keep things going in the first place. The Senate as a whole would become more active because players wouldn't burn out. So while you may lose someone like Yank (for a few months), you also have no need for his ability to keep the Senate scraping along.

I can think of at least 2 regional senate elections where active candidates or incumbents were kicked out for less than active replacements. That certainly didn't help the game at all. Imagine if that happened everywhere, and Yankee also was barred from running, what would happen then? I don't think this proposal would work as flawlessly as it sounds.

There are a bunch of other possibilities we have locked up for discussion in the campaign that still address this problem, so highlighting the strong and weak points of each individual idea is exactly the sort of thing in a contest of ideas that we want to do.

Regardless, ignoring the merits of the idea entirely and just saying this generally, we just can't have it both ways here. At some point, something's gotta change, and people can't say that they wish new people were involved in the game and that we had more people doing things while at the same time trying to protect the job security of the old guard. If we actually want to solve problems, we need to make the tough and challenging decisions to actually solve them. We can't just always pay the idea of being newbie-friendly lip service without putting our money where our mouth is. (I never understood that saying.)
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« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2011, 09:13:24 pm »
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Statement on the recent Oakvale vs. Marokai brawl

As someone who is and always has been hilariously in the dark on the back room dealmaking of this game, I just want everyone to take a deep breath. We have all just started what will be a very long and hopefully meaningful two month campaign. There will be policy proposals, debates and probably a few dramas along the way.

It is especially important at the beginning of this process to remain calm while all of the early shifting takes place. We will have some twists and turns all along the way, with surprise candidates and endorsements and policies, but let's not confuse the excitement of the game and the campaign with personal affronts and true anger.

Just a quick thought for all those dishing out early endorsements: let the campaigns get more than two feet off the ground before making your decisions. I know there are a lot of friendships on/off and forum and in this game, but at least wait until the platforms are unveiled or the debates begin to make your decision.

And let's all just make it through this with our sanity, mmk?

Now *hughughug* and let the fun begin.

~PS
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« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2011, 09:49:40 pm »
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Now *hughughug* and let the fun begin.


*hughughug!* Grin Cheesy Grin
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« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2011, 10:29:18 pm »
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TPTTAA:
Marokai. Given what's come out in the recent "brawl" between you and Oakvale, do you feel you are qualified to be President?

(nothing personal)
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