Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ) in critical condition, 6 others killed in Arizona

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

It appears the shooter is invoking his 5th Amendment right......why is anyone surprised?

Sheriff says Ariz. rampage suspect not cooperating

Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said Loughner was not cooperating and told ABC's "Good Morning America" the suspect had said "not a word" to investigators. Dupnik said authorities were all but certain Loughner acted alone, saying "he's a typical troubled individual who's a loner."

More here

REPEAL!!11

Is it hyperbole to think someone might just do that, given all of the statements from politicians about legislation to be introduced as a result of this tragedy?

[cinyc]

Why is it a good thing for candidates to call for assassinations?  Again, no major party candidate that I know have called for assassinations of specific individuals.

It doesn't have to be specific individuals to be dangerous. Naming the Democratic members of Congress as people to be shot reduces it to a few hundred, of which only a few will be convenient to a given shooter. Not that it matters, the only reason you're saying "specific individuals" is so you can define some realm of bad behavior outside of what Republicans have done, not based on whether it's more or less dangerous. And if we find a Republican who said "we should kill Jane Goldberg because she voted [y]," and plenty of activists have done in the last two years as they've been riled up by their leaders, you'll just move the goal posts again.

I'm not here to convince you or keystone phil because neither of you is arguing in good faith or seeking an exchange of views. You're seeking maximum defense of your team, whether plausible or not, and will fight to the end for that. I'm here to think through my beliefs and express them in arguments, have them tested, explore what I think, and put forward the best conclusion I can. I know you well enough to know that at the end of the day, you're never going to acknowledge anything that causes potential disadvantage to your party and beliefs. That's fine! What you think and believe, doesn't matter to me. Truth and intellectual honesty do. To the extent that you engage with those topics or give me a chance to, I argue with you. But I don't really care if you choose to stay within your little fortress at the end of the day, any more than I care if CARLHAYDEN ever changes his views in response to posts responding to him.

And I know you well enough at the end of the day that you are never going to acknowledge anything that causes potential disadvantage to your party.  It is your party's interest to pretend that this shooting was due to a supposedly toxic political environment even though there is absolutely zero evidence that this shooter was any more influenced by the supposedly hateful political rhetoric of the day it than John Hinckley was when he shot President Reagan in the 1980s.

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This line of argument, half debunked straw-man ("banned"?), has already been countered several times in this thread. We have a dying or crippled congresswoman lying in a coma, a 9-year-old girl is dead. You translate this to "I don't think it's nice." Well, cinyc, whatever you want to believe, you're welcome to. I'm just very, very grateful that the majority in this country doesn't share your views about subordinating human lives and morality to a belief that you must defend whatever members of your party say and do, must be defended on the Internet with maximum sarcasm and refusal to acknowledge opposing views.[/quote]

I am not only defending what members of my party say.  I am also defending the right of what members of your party, the Green Party and any other party say to say it, short of advocating violence against a particular individual.  If you actually knew me well enough, you'd know that the right to maximum political speech is a very important issue to me, that I've decried McCain-Feingold for infringing on it, and am generally against bans on speech.

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Of course, whatever examples I or Keystone Phil or anyone else with a blue avatar posts will always be weak.   Democrats can do no wrong.  A sitting Pennsylvania congressman calling for a Republican gubernatorial candidate to be shot is just fine because he didn't mean it literally and the guy was supposedly a thief, anyway.  But a graphic of targets over states is hateful because Sarah Palin did it and she really wants to kill people.  Sure.

Your "vast imbalance in political violence" obviously doesn't include the assassination attempts on Presidents Reagan or Ford, both Republicans.  

I could go on, but there really is no sense.  I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

[Brittain33]

I suppose so. I regret that the many times I've noted Democratic failures and inappropriate views (and not for being too liberal) haven't resonated with you, I certainly try my best to be a moderate hero. But I recognize that some things just aren't going to be visible when they aren't being looked for.

[Keystone Phil]

Cinyc, phil, jbrase, how would you feel if Obama, Dick Blumenthal, etc. were going on national tv and saying "This is Lloyd Blankfein's house. 1313 Mockingbird Lane, Greenwich, Connecticut. Mr. Blankfein is blocking reforms we need to prevent Wall Street from stealing your money. Now, I would never hurt him myself, but maybe it would be good for the country if people went out there and showed him exactly why he should work with us instead of against us..."

Oh, I wasn't aware that Palin and the others you despise and want to blame for this called on someone to be hurt.

[Brittain33]

Cinyc, phil, jbrase, how would you feel if Obama, Dick Blumenthal, etc. were going on national tv and saying "This is Lloyd Blankfein's house. 1313 Mockingbird Lane, Greenwich, Connecticut. Mr. Blankfein is blocking reforms we need to prevent Wall Street from stealing your money. Now, I would never hurt him myself, but maybe it would be good for the country if people went out there and showed him exactly why he should work with us instead of against us..."

Oh, I wasn't aware that Palin and the others you despise and want to blame for this called on someone to be hurt.

Second time, Phil: go back and read what I wrote about Palin in this thread if you want to respond to me. Please.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

I think the nature of the Democratic Party has changed in recent years to make it so that inflammatory/populist rhetoric coming from it is going to be rare. Think about it: the Democrats are now the bland party of granola suburbanites and yuppies in a coalition with hispanics and blacks with some students and remnants of the white working class thrown in the mix, the party's base will almost never crave speech that's absurdly hyperbolic and falsehoods used by party members will always be frowned upon. It's kind of the nature of a party that has a huge base in the highly educated class of society.

Kind of random thoughts but I think this is the main reason why the disparities between the parties has grown when it comes to hyperbole and the kind of inflammatory anger speech that nearly everyone in this thread is decrying. Democrats are pretty much the sole party of the intelligentsia at this point. I know it sounds like I'm saying that the Democrats are smarter, what I'm really saying is that certain classes of society are more prone to like politicians using gun metaphors while others aren't and certain classes of society will prefer bland policy wonk stuff over hyperbole over death pannels. The class of society that likes wonky numbers the most is now disproportionately in a certain party.

I think rhetoric of certain parties reflects the preferences of the base. Obama/the Democrats have a very optimistic tone when it comes to the direction of the country because their base has that belief. Remember that Obama was essentially using the same rhetoric long before his presidential run. Minorities, crunchy suburbanites, yuppies and the youth eat that up. If you don't believe me, look at the polls that rank optimism by ethnicity, age etc.

[Keystone Phil]

DeadFlagBlues continues to constantly have the most "Uh..." response worthy posts.

Cinyc, phil, jbrase, how would you feel if Obama, Dick Blumenthal, etc. were going on national tv and saying "This is Lloyd Blankfein's house. 1313 Mockingbird Lane, Greenwich, Connecticut. Mr. Blankfein is blocking reforms we need to prevent Wall Street from stealing your money. Now, I would never hurt him myself, but maybe it would be good for the country if people went out there and showed him exactly why he should work with us instead of against us..."

Oh, I wasn't aware that Palin and the others you despise and want to blame for this called on someone to be hurt.

Second time, Phil: go back and read what I wrote about Palin in this thread if you want to respond to me. Please.

This thread is over forty pages long. If you could, please quote it here. Better yet, save yourself some time and let it go if you're just going to continue to go on about rhetoric while mocking my points about Kanjorski's extremely dangerous comments.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

At least I'm not trolling in an obtuse way like half the people in this thread.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Can a mod please delete this thread: https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=130372.0

I can't because I just can't and yeah it says "confirmed dead" which is obviously not the case anymore. So yeah can a mod remove it please because I feel stupid that I made it. lol I don't even know if it's possible to delete thread...but yeah

please! right now it is just locked and says the thread is in the US General Discussion. that's really unhelpful - i saw it and was saddened to hear it since it sounded last night like she was recovering, though it's apparently not true. it needs be deleted. or, since the discussion of this thread is just a bunch of ideological back and forth at this point, maybe it can be unlocked and actual updates of what is going on can be put there.

[Sam Spade]

This is a conservative blogger, so caveat emptor, but I posted it because of the Reuters article which says:

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http://thechollajumps.wordpress.com/2011/01/09/jared-loughner-is-a-product-of-sheriff-dupniks-office/

[Antonio the Sixth]

Hillary Clinton:

"We have extremists in my country. A wonderful, incredibly brave young woman Congress member, Congresswoman Giffords, was just shot by an extremist in our country," she said. "We have the same kinds of problems. So rather than standing off from each other, we should work to try to prevent the extremists anywhere from being able to commit violence. The extremists and their voices, the crazy voices that sometimes get on the TV, that's not who we are, that's not who you are, and what we have to do is get through that and make it clear that that doesn't represent either American or Arab ideas or opinions."

Wow, Kudos to Hillary for having the courage to say things as they are.

[fezzyfestoon]

Hillary Clinton:

"We have extremists in my country. A wonderful, incredibly brave young woman Congress member, Congresswoman Giffords, was just shot by an extremist in our country," she said. "We have the same kinds of problems. So rather than standing off from each other, we should work to try to prevent the extremists anywhere from being able to commit violence. The extremists and their voices, the crazy voices that sometimes get on the TV, that's not who we are, that's not who you are, and what we have to do is get through that and make it clear that that doesn't represent either American or Arab ideas or opinions."

Wow, Kudos to Hillary for having the courage to say things as they are.

Wow, yeah.  I'm incredibly impressed with Hillary for the first time ever.

[Brittain33]

This thread is over forty pages long. If you could, please quote it here.

To be brief, I said that Palin's rifle-sight target was not in the same league as the comments by Angle and Bachmann I keep quoting, not to mention lots of extreme stuff said by radio talk show hosts and various activists. Palin didn't outright call for assassinating officials, she just played fast and loose with rhetoric about guns. I am far more concerned about the former than the latter. I think the latter is dangerous, but it's harder to object to as clearly.

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I was sincere in saying Kanjorski was wrong to say that. As far as being "extremely dangerous," I mock that because of many reasons people have spelled out here, and which can be hashed out on that thread.

[Landslide Lyndon]

[Brittain33]

Republicans are saying it's inappropriate at this time for politicians to talk about whether there are specific things it is inappropriate for politicians to talk about (or be "banned" from talking about.)

[Middle-aged Europe]

10,503 comments on the Arizona shootings so far on Sarah Palin's Facebook page. The debate rages on.

Apparently, there's also a lot of deleting going on. Every 30 seconds it suddenly drops by ten comments or so. Can't really stop the flood though.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Republicans are saying it's inappropriate at this time for politicians to talk about whether there are specific things it is inappropriate for politicians to talk about (or be "banned" from talking about.)

The AP is already running a story about what happens should the house declare her seat vacant, truly sick.

"If the House were to vacate Giffords' seat, Arizona law provides for a special election — both a primary and a general. The vacancy must occur at least six months before the next general election before a special election would be held, said Matt Benson, a spokesman for the Arizona Secretary of State's Office."

(c) ASSociated Press

[Хahar 🤔]

I certainly try my best to be a moderate hero.

"Moderate hero" is an insult.

[Brittain33]

I certainly try my best to be a moderate hero.

"Moderate hero" is an insult.

Yeah, and I think sometimes I show signs of it.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I certainly try my best to be a moderate hero.

"Moderate hero" is an insult.

Yeah, and I think sometimes I show signs of it.

Your agreement with Scott Brown's voting record lately is a fine example of it.

[Keystone Phil]

I must applaud Congressman Grijalva and Congresswoman Pingree, just interviewed on Hardball, for saying this wasn't the fault of just the Left or Right. Grijalva actually made it a point to say that he wasn't blaming  the "political discourse" for this.

Meanwhile, Matthews kept making it about Angle, Palin, etc. Thank you to most of those on the set for being adults. 

[courts]

I must applaud Congressman Grijalva and Congresswoman Pingree, just interviewed on Hardball, for saying this wasn't the fault of just the Left or Right. Grijalva actually made it a point to say that he wasn't blaming  the "political discourse" for this.

Meanwhile, Matthews kept making it about Angle, Palin, etc. Thank you to most of those on the set for being adults. 

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

This issue is not about left or right. It's about a mentally sick guy going off. Politics played little or no role in this and if it did, it did not involve Palin, the Tea Party or anything else. Anyone claiming otherwise is being very disingenuous and should reexamine their life immediately. 

[CatoMinor]

This issue is not about left or right. It's about a mentally sick guy going off. Politics played little or no role in this and if it did, it did not involve Palin, the Tea Party or anything else. Anyone claiming otherwise is being very disingenuous and should reexamine their life immediately. 

Amen

[Хahar 🤔]

You're being disingenuous here. I'll repeat my prior statement:

What is important is the fetishization of violence in American political culture—specifically, a certain part of American political culture. It matters that this, while as ever a lamentable tragedy, is not shocking, for the first time in decades, precisely because of said fetishization.

That which is sown is also reaped.