Pope John Paul II to become Saint John Paul

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Article in case you're interested.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Yeah!! (okay, a little exaggerated)

[useful idiot]

It's fitting considering the Catholic notion of sainthood became pretty meaningless under his tenure.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Damn.

One of the most overrated persons in history.

[John Dibble]

Disagree.

First of all, how can you prove that the miracles attributed to him that are required for his sainthood were actually miracles or had anything to do with him in any way?

Second, he never remitted at all on the damaging anti-condom policy of the Catholic Church. Even the current Pope has slightly changed his tune on that.

Third, he didn't adequately respond to the priest sex scandals during his tenure. If he had perhaps the current Pope wouldn't have responded so poorly either - you'd think a leader who is supposed to be infallible could have made a better example for his followers.

Finally, it's rather obvious to me that the real reason for this is just because he was popular with even many non-Catholics who are still alive today. It's a PR move, not a serious spiritual consideration, just like with the overrated Mother Teresa. It would be better to wait perhaps a few decades and allow a new generation to look at the issue more objectively.

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

...travel to N.Korea Kalwejt and stay there! I think theres your place.
 At least you will save us from your idiotic comments commie...

Consider yourself reported.

[Emperor]

...travel to N.Korea Kalwejt and stay there! I think theres your place.
 At least you will save us from your idiotic comments commie...

Consider yourself reported.

what is a commie without to be an informer...

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

...travel to N.Korea Kalwejt and stay there! I think theres your place.
 At least you will save us from your idiotic comments commie...

Consider yourself reported.

what is a commie without to be an informer...

Troll.

[Redalgo]

Sure why not? Whether he actually qualifies for it or not the world needs some heroes. If the Church has to insist on pretending miracles exist, it may as well beatify people believers find inspiring.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Disagree.

First of all, how can you prove that the miracles attributed to him that are required for his sainthood were actually miracles or had anything to do with him in any way?

First of all, that could be said about any nominee for Sainthood. We're looking at this in the context of the Catholic Church, so it's going to be judged by people who by default believe in god and believe in miracles.

[John Dibble]

Disagree.

First of all, how can you prove that the miracles attributed to him that are required for his sainthood were actually miracles or had anything to do with him in any way?

First of all, that could be said about any nominee for Sainthood.

Of course it could - that's a significant part of the point. Of course, in some cases, like with Mother Teresa's supposed miracle you can show it wasn't a miracle.

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And so they should simply accept a miracle claim? Why?

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Sure why not? Whether he actually qualifies for it or not the world needs some heroes. If the Church has to insist on pretending miracles exist, it may as well beatify people believers find inspiring.


Miracles indeed happen. People have been raised from the dead, people flying without the aid of an aircraft, teleportation, people who lost or were born without limbs gaining them.

[Sewer]

Sure why not? Whether he actually qualifies for it or not the world needs some heroes. If the Church has to insist on pretending miracles exist, it may as well beatify people believers find inspiring.

Miracles indeed happen. People have been raised from the dead, people flying without the aid of an aircraft, teleportation, people who lost or were born without limbs gaining them.

ಠ_ಠ the fuck?

[patrick1]

Disagree.

First of all, how can you prove that the miracles attributed to him that are required for his sainthood were actually miracles or had anything to do with him in any way?

Second, he never remitted at all on the damaging anti-condom policy of the Catholic Church. Even the current Pope has slightly changed his tune on that.

Third, he didn't adequately respond to the priest sex scandals during his tenure. If he had perhaps the current Pope wouldn't have responded so poorly either - you'd think a leader who is supposed to be infallible could have made a better example for his followers.

Finally, it's rather obvious to me that the real reason for this is just because he was popular with even many non-Catholics who are still alive today. It's a PR move, not a serious spiritual consideration, just like with the overrated Mother Teresa. It would be better to wait perhaps a few decades and allow a new generation to look at the issue more objectively.

Dibble, for an atheist/agnostic you post more about religious matters than anyone save Jmf. Thank you for interjecting and presuming to know the inner workings and motivations of a church you are not a part of though. However, if you are to become a member of the curia, you should look into what infallibility really states and not just the laymens version of what people think it says.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Don't care. I will never refer to any person as a saint anyway (even those who were Freedom Fighters), unless there is a place named after them (It'd be kind of weird if I referred to the place to the east as just "Paul".)

[MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!]

Not that Sainthood have some great merit. And JPII played a key role, by naming saint every possible person.

Ask not, who did not become a saint under John Paul II: better ask: who did not?

[John Dibble]

Dibble, for an atheist/agnostic you post more about religious matters than anyone save Jmf.

Religion affects the world I live in, regardless of whether or not I am religious. This is a world where people of faith try to put their beliefs into law, a world where people of religious faith kill one another and themselves in the name of their holy creeds. I would be a fool to ignore it.

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We criticize people's politics, the actions of other nations we are not part of, and all sorts of other groups we aren't part of or things that don't affect us directly. I don't think you object to any of that, so why exactly should I not criticize the Roman Catholic Church when I see fit to do so? What exactly is it about your religion and your church that deserves special consideration?

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Oh, yes, I couldn't possibly understand it if I'm not a member. It couldn't be that I just think it's a load of crap.

Papal infallibility can be summarized thusly - the Pope is infallible except when he isn't, and nobody is quite sure when he is or isn't. That's a very convenient policy, don't you think?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

None of my business; I'm not a Catholic and have no interest in becoming one.

[patrick1]

Dibble, for an atheist/agnostic you post more about religious matters than anyone save Jmf.

Religion affects the world I live in, regardless of whether or not I am religious. This is a world where people of faith try to put their beliefs into law, a world where people of religious faith kill one another and themselves in the name of their holy creeds. I would be a fool to ignore it.

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We criticize people's politics, the actions of other nations we are not part of, and all sorts of other groups we aren't part of or things that don't affect us directly. I don't think you object to any of that, so why exactly should I not criticize the Roman Catholic Church when I see fit to do so? What exactly is it about your religion and your church that deserves special consideration?

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Oh, yes, I couldn't possibly understand it if I'm not a member. It couldn't be that I just think it's a load of crap.

Papal infallibility can be summarized thusly - the Pope is infallible except when he isn't, and nobody is quite sure when he is or isn't. That's a very convenient policy, don't you think?

Dibble,  1. I apologize for my sarcastic tone. It was late and I was grumpy. 2. I am perhaps making assumptions about you that are not fair or accurate. To me, it seems sometimes that you are seeking to evangelize your (lack of) faith position. If you are- then you are entitled, however, I even get a bit uncomfortable with even Christians doing this.  3. In short, I tend to get over defensive on these matters, I'm likely projecting and I dont mean to be a douche. 

TBS, I do take some umbrage with you establishing this as a sort soulless PR move. Whether you believe in it are not there have been many people who believe (rightly or wrongly) that they have been cured by his intercession. They had a piece on Nightline just last night on this- doctors have claimed that there is no medical explanation in several cases.  I personally allow for miracle, however, I can see how others would claim happenstance.  The automatic assumption of cynical motives just gets me peeved.

Infallibility is very limited in scope and is really on applicable when the pope speaks ex cathedra.

In closing, I hope all is well and I must tip my cap at your stamina in these religious/philosophy debating threads. For whatever reason, these big picture questions have lost their draw for me. My answer to at lot of these threads on creationism- is who cares?  However, I do enjoy reading them and appreciate your input.   Regards, Pat

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Not that Sainthood have some great merit. And JPII played a key role, by naming saint every possible person.

Ask not, who did not become a saint under John Paul II: better ask: who did not?

Read that last sentance again. It doesn't make sence.

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

Sure why not? Whether he actually qualifies for it or not the world needs some heroes. If the Church has to insist on pretending miracles exist, it may as well beatify people believers find inspiring.


Miracles indeed happen. People have been raised from the dead, people flying without the aid of an aircraft, teleportation, people who lost or were born without limbs gaining them.

When and where have these things happened?

[Insula Dei]

Very overrated pope. I like Benedict better and I'm not that keen on our current pope.

[John Dibble]

Dibble,  1. I apologize for my sarcastic tone. It was late and I was grumpy.

No problem - I took no offense. I deal with far worse.

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I suppose that's one way to characterize it, but I prefer to think of it as advancing a rational skeptic's way of thinking that encompasses all things and not just religion. It's just that for some reason religions seems to be the one place where people are most stubborn in resisting this, so I feel the need to up the ante.

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You aren't a douche, and you didn't come off that way. I know that I'm rather blunt and this can come off as me being a jerk to some people. You're defending your beliefs, which is perfectly fine for anyone to do.

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Having looked at recent church history on matters of PR, it just seems that way to me. As examples:

1. The beatification of Mother Teresa, which I mentioned earlier, was based on what seems to rather obviously be a false miracle. Info here. Mother Teresa was popular (for misguided reasons) so it seems to have been a PR move.
2. The current Pope's responses to the abuse scandals seemed far more concerned with the image of the RCC than seeing that justice was done for the victims.
3. The very slight change over condom policy only came after years of international criticism on the issue. Again, it seems an image thing to me.

John Paul II was an internationally beloved and respected figure, and as I mentioned the people who felt that way are for the most part still alive. I don't doubt the sincerity of those people, but the upper organization of the RCC seems very concerned about image and rushing John Paul II towards sainthood just seems to be a way to distract people from the RCC negative press for the most part.

For the record I've met a number of Catholics and for the most part they are good people. My recently deceased stepfather was a Catholic, and his priest is a very kind person as well. My criticism in this regard is towards the organization, especially the upper echelons, not the bulk of it's followers.

[Gustaf]

The infallibility of the pope seems to be a very tired and misunderstood accusation levelled against the Catholic Church.

[Free Palestine]

If coincidences were never attributed as miracles, religion wouldn't exist.  I don't see much reason to argue against him becoming a Saint if you're a godless heathen like myself.