France 2012: the official thread

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Third, the idea that this news story is only deserving of being reported within the elections thread of a separate board is a determination only worthy of fascists, sexual deviants and perverts, much like DSK.

I'd rather not have the more lurid details cluttering up this board too much, so... you know...

Which is why we should have a thread in the International General Discussion Board.

[Sam Spade]

Third, the idea that this news story is only deserving of being reported within the elections thread of a separate board is a determination only worthy of fascists, sexual deviants and perverts, much like DSK.

I'd rather not have the more lurid details cluttering up this board too much, so... you know...

Which is why we should have a thread in the International General Discussion Board.

There was, but if someone locks one thread, what will happen to the other?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Caution denied.

Sorry, but I can't help thinking that there's some unusual doggedness from the American institutions in this affair. Imagining that he could flee is just ridiculous. Add this that there are huge unclarities in the police's versions...

[MaxQue]

Imagining that he could flee is just ridiculous.

Sure...

He has money, he can flee if he wants.
Some people just don't want to go in jail.

[Sam Spade]

Update:  No bail - DSK remanded to custody.  Prosecutors said he was flight risk, and they won.  Goes before grand jury on May 20.
As to the actual charges - believe what you want folks, but the cops have a lot of physical evidence.  That seems apparent.

Al is right on the fact that this type of incident rarely occurs with a powerful man.

Also, my friends in the DA's department have long told me that those who are guilty try to act normally after committing the crime - so I would not necessarily read the "call on the plane" or "lunch with the daughter" positively.

That being said - innocent until proven guilty.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Imagining that he could flee is just ridiculous.

Sure...

He has money, he can flee if he wants.
Some people just don't want to go in jail.

It would make him definitely guilty and as popular as Hitler - yes, in France too. If he wants a future, he has no choice but staying.

[MaxQue]

Imagining that he could flee is just ridiculous.

Sure...

He has money, he can flee if he wants.
Some people just don't want to go in jail.

It would make him definitely guilty and as popular as Hitler - yes, in France too. If he wants a future, he has no choice but staying.

Well, people are often not rationnal in situations like that.
They panick and do something stupid.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm sure he is very lucid instead. Not panicked, but downhearted.

[You kip if you want to...]

Update:  No bail - DSK remanded to custody.  Prosecutors said he was flight risk, and they won.  Goes before grand jury on May 20.
As to the actual charges - believe what you want folks, but the cops have a lot of physical evidence.  That seems apparent.

Al is right on the fact that this type of incident rarely occurs with a powerful man.

Also, my friends in the DA's department have long told me that those who are guilty try to act normally after committing the crime - so I would not necessarily read the "call on the plane" or "lunch with the daughter" positively.

That being said - innocent until proven guilty.

Ahh, but the lunch thing was supposed to have been at the time the incident was supposed to have happened.

And anyway, you'd think these hotels would have security cameras. Or is all that too nanny-state Britain?

[Gustaf]

Sorry if I don't apreciate people who deem an entire people sexist because of a few things he heard. You have no clue what the heck you are talking about, but you say it as if it were an evidence. This is called bigotry, and I find it interesting it comes from someone who usually points out bigotry in everybody.

I must have missed the part where I called an entire people sexist. A country having a sexist culture isn't the same as everyone in it being sexist. I would have thought that rather obvious.

And while I realize you may be blind to it, being French and all, France is known to be a pretty sexist nation. Not as bad as most non-industrialized nations of course, but still.

Wow. Must I remember you a thread about Israel where I was in the same situation than you? You can't condemn me and trying to defend you from the same thing at the same time.

Well, DSK is probably out of the race, which is good, since IMF ran neo-liberal politics. French left doesn't need to be a soft copy of the right.

You said that "an Israeli" will always spin things in favour of the Israeli government and then went on to argue that Israelis were guilty of the actions of their government. It was blatantly anti-semitic and rather disgusting.

I never claimed all French people were sexist. That would be pretty ridiculous. I was making a sarcastic remark on sexism in general and in sexist cultures in particular.

[Gustaf]

NYPD now changing its version...

Could he be acquitted before the deadline for primary candidacies ? Of course I know the chances are tiny, but I need to believe in it.

I must have missed the part where I called an entire people sexist. A country having a sexist culture isn't the same as everyone in it being sexist. I would have thought that rather obvious.

And while I realize you may be blind to it, being French and all, France is known to be a pretty sexist nation. Not as bad as most non-industrialized nations of course, but still.

That sounds pretty much like I've nothing against Arabs as people, but... you know, their culture bla bla. You strike me as a guy who knows nothing about a place and still makes bold statements like this :

I don't want to be bigoted but what is rape in NY might not be considered rape by a French bigshot.

You are judging a guy you know nothing about, based only upon the fact he is French. Classy.

Where did I judge anyone? And how is a statement with a "might" in it bold in any way?

My post was mostly a joke - which should have been pretty clear from the wording. The main point was that powerful men, especially in sexist cultures, tend to feel a sense of entitlement to women. This is a fairly common occurrence and obviously doesn't get reported in most cases.

France is a culture well-known for that attitude, so I thought DSK living up to the stereotype was amusing. I read an essay in Sweden's biggest newspaper just the other day from a woman about how unnerving it was to walk the streets of Paris because of the different attitude towards women there. 

Of course, most cultures are sexist to some degree and many worse than France.

What I'm not sure of is exactly where you disagree with me. You've insinuated that I'm racist and not knowledgeable enough on France but that seems a bit irrelevant.

Do you disagree that powerful male politicians are often sexist and that this is more prevalent in sexist cultures and that France is a fairly sexist culture?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Imagining that he could flee is just ridiculous.

Sure...

He has money, he can flee if he wants.
Some people just don't want to go in jail.

It would make him definitely guilty and as popular as Hitler - yes, in France too. If he wants a future, he has no choice but staying.

If he is guilty, then he has no future anyway, but fleeing back to France could keep him out of jail.

[Insula Dei]

Imagining that he could flee is just ridiculous.

Sure...

He has money, he can flee if he wants.
Some people just don't want to go in jail.

It would make him definitely guilty and as popular as Hitler - yes, in France too. If he wants a future, he has no choice but staying.

If he is guilty, then he has no future anyway, but fleeing back to France could keep him out of jail.

True, but he probably would still face persecution over the other case?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Imagining that he could flee is just ridiculous.

Sure...

He has money, he can flee if he wants.
Some people just don't want to go in jail.

It would make him definitely guilty and as popular as Hitler - yes, in France too. If he wants a future, he has no choice but staying.

If he is guilty, then he has no future anyway, but fleeing back to France could keep him out of jail.

True, but he probably would still face persecution over the other case?

Maybe, maybe not.  In any event, the other case does not seriously impact whether or not he DSK is a flight risk from New York.

[beneficii]

Here is a copy of the original criminal complaint:

http://abcnews.go.com/Site/page?id=13612720

[Antonio the Sixth]

What I'm not sure of is exactly where you disagree with me. You've insinuated that I'm racist and not knowledgeable enough on France but that seems a bit irrelevant.

Do you disagree that powerful male politicians are often sexist and that this is more prevalent in sexist cultures and that France is a fairly sexist culture?

I've insinuated that you are prejudiced, and I still think you are.

So to put it clearly :
- I've no idea if "powerful male politicians" tend to be sexist. Overall, a fair number of them probably are. That's still not a reason to call a sexist someone you know nothing about.
- France has a fairly sexist culture ? I've no idea. That's not what I've perceived (and sexism is one of the things that I can't bear, believe me if you want), but I probably lack elements of comparison. The question is : what the hell you exactly know about French culture ? As far as I know, your bold statements seem to be based only on your French teacher and on swedish media. You might be right, but the way you say it makes it ridiculous.

[You kip if you want to...]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfy6s-_eVOI&feature=player_embedded - There are NO words! hahahaha!

[You kip if you want to...]

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/16/dominique-strauss-khan-arrest-france

Come oooooon! This is staring us in the face...

[Antonio the Sixth]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/16/dominique-strauss-khan-arrest-france

Come oooooon! This is staring us in the face...

That's a strong possibility, yeah. If this turns out to be true, some people need to die in a fire quickly.

[big bad fab]

Currently, French TVs have images of DSK in front of the judge and it's repeating all over news channels...

This is really very, very unusual here...

I don't know how people will eventually react.

There may be a reflex of defense, good for the socialists globally speaking.
There may also be a conclusion that, after all, Sarkozy isn't so abnormal and obscene...
There may be people disgusted with politics and joining abstention camp.

Hollande, Borloo, Hulot should be the short-term winners.
Le Pen will solidify more than gain voters.
Sarkozy may be a medium-term winner.
And Aubry is quite strong now if (a big if) she has enough tactical maestria.
I really fear she might become our next president...
(Please, God, help us )

[Landslide Lyndon]

Imagining that he could flee is just ridiculous.

Sure...

He has money, he can flee if he wants.
Some people just don't want to go in jail.

It would make him definitely guilty and as popular as Hitler - yes, in France too. If he wants a future, he has no choice but staying.

If he is guilty, then he has no future anyway, but fleeing back to France could keep him out of jail.

How? Can't he be extradited to the States?

[Sam Spade]

If I came up with half the cockamamie theories about American politicians who commit crimes that are being made by the French and certain posters on this forum to explain how he's not guilty, I'd be laughed off the forum immediately.

Besides, why do certain leftist posters want to defend some rich banker who heads an organization that regularly screws poor countries and poor people for their own benefit?  Hilarious, if you ask me.

As I said before - innocent until proven guilty.  But this ain't some minority in the Bronx being prosecuted - the cops will be quite careful here.

[Gustaf]

What I'm not sure of is exactly where you disagree with me. You've insinuated that I'm racist and not knowledgeable enough on France but that seems a bit irrelevant.

Do you disagree that powerful male politicians are often sexist and that this is more prevalent in sexist cultures and that France is a fairly sexist culture?

I've insinuated that you are prejudiced, and I still think you are.

So to put it clearly :
- I've no idea if "powerful male politicians" tend to be sexist. Overall, a fair number of them probably are. That's still not a reason to call a sexist someone you know nothing about.
- France has a fairly sexist culture ? I've no idea. That's not what I've perceived (and sexism is one of the things that I can't bear, believe me if you want), but I probably lack elements of comparison. The question is : what the hell you exactly know about French culture ? As far as I know, your bold statements seem to be based only on your French teacher and on swedish media. You might be right, but the way you say it makes it ridiculous.

I haven't called any specific person sexist. What I said was that if he turns out to be guilty it would fit a fairly common pattern and thus would not be particularly surprising (in response to people apparently thinking it unbelievable). I don't think that it's very controversial to called the alleged act an indication of sexism.

Sure, my evidence of France being sexist is anecdotal - it's based on personal experiences of people I know, several stories I've seen in the media, the behaviour of many French politicians and the popular reactions to them and so on. Just look at the Polanski case, for example. But what else would it be? You're still to offer any sort of evidence to the contrary or even outright saying that you disagree.

I think that if you want to call me a bigoted idiot for having an opinion you might want to explain why you think I'm wrong.

[Gustaf]

Oh, and the Guardian seems to agree with me:  "How many senior male French politicians aren't either a groper, a cheater, a charmer or a serial seducer? And it goes right to the top of the political class," sighed one news editor. "France is still a kind of monarchy that kept the aristocratic morals of the 18th century. The lord of the manor has a right to the women; the king has his mistresses."

[Insula Dei]

Actually the 'serial seducer' thing isn't necessarily sexist, it's just not in line with the ideal  heterosexual (though nowadays homosexual goes as well) , monogamous relationship as preached by bourgeois morality. It's certainly not something I frown upon.

On the whole France doesn't strike me as very 'sexist'. It's certainly less so than Italy or Spain. On the whole France is pretty much your archetypical Western European (Contintal) Liberal Democracy. (From now on I'll refer to these nations as WELDs)