Wanna get America going again? Pay the poor!
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  Wanna get America going again? Pay the poor!
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Author Topic: Wanna get America going again? Pay the poor!  (Read 2011 times)
fezzyfestoon
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2011, 11:34:50 PM »

The primary issue I take with this is that the $40 payment to extremely poor Brazilian families doubles their average income, but in order to make an impact of that scale in the US it would take astronomically more.  The success certainly makes it worth looking into though.  And I agree with the idea on a basic level if done right.  There is an unsettling separation of classes in the US.  What's most interesting is the physical separation similar to the ones we often find ourselves creating in this country.  There is a complete disconnect and distrust between entire population segments of the country and that never goes well for us.  It certainly is the land of the free, but it's also indivisible.  We're dividing it in favor of freedom, but only for a select few.  I personally find it hard to reason that our recently developed tendencies towards winking and nodding at almost predatory profiting in the name of freedom are honest or just.
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Storebought
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« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2011, 02:00:54 PM »
« Edited: January 25, 2011, 02:02:37 PM by Storebought »

The primary issue I take with this is that the $40 payment to extremely poor Brazilian families doubles their average income, but in order to make an impact of that scale in the US it would take astronomically more.  The success certainly makes it worth looking into though.  And I agree with the idea on a basic level if done right.  There is an unsettling separation of classes in the US.  What's most interesting is the physical separation similar to the ones we often find ourselves creating in this country.  There is a complete disconnect and distrust between entire population segments of the country and that never goes well for us.  It certainly is the land of the free, but it's also indivisible.  We're dividing it in favor of freedom, but only for a select few.  I personally find it hard to reason that our recently developed tendencies towards winking and nodding at almost predatory profiting in the name of freedom are honest or just.

I don't know why I will bother with a response, since it's clear that according to the Atlas Forum consensus the solution entails members of the "owning class" redistributing their life savings away through confiscatory taxation to "poors" so they too can live like the owners (presumably before the confiscations took place) ... or whatnot ... but this issue is important to me so I will reply anyway.

I see two points in this post: Direct transfer payments can alleviate poverty amongst a rural peasant class, as it had in the American South during the 1940s, but I don't see that it has alleviated poverty in any way outside of it. Quite the opposite: the problems we see with the poor in the US stem as a consequence of the nature of the welfare that they receive -- the direct correlation between childhood and adult obesity and use of TANF and free/reduced school lunch program; high dropout rates from public schools that in any case cannot prepare graduates for even (rapidly diminishing) blue collar employment; high teen pregnancy rates, combined with high infant mortality rates, for single parents whose child and personal health care is provided free through Medicaid. These are systemic issues that cannot be ameliorated through yet another wealth transfer program, which already exists in the EITC, except to the extent that it allows the poor to escape the institutions of poverty like the food stamps, Medicaid, etc.

As far as your second point: Unless you have a means to prevent the free movement of the population, for whatever reason, your second concern is purely rhetorical.
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fezzyfestoon
Junior Chimp
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« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2011, 03:59:30 PM »

I don't know if you've read the article, but many of the successful programs in place require a number of actions by the families in order to retain payments.  It's not as though rich people are throwing money at the icky poors telling them to stop it.  A parent has to attend nutritional classes, the kids have to remain in school, regularly visit the doctor, and other things I wouldn't expect a family with a tight budget to worry about otherwise.  I'm not seeing this as throwing money at the problem as much as creating a new culture of responsibility where it has been discouraged by previous programs.  Like I said, the successes elsewhere make this worth looking into, not directly replicating.  Our issues with poverty are very different than those of Brazil or Mexico.  But regardless, it has worked so I don't see how that's something worth resisting so fervently based on some sort of resentment.  The reality is that poor people in the US have historically been screwed by programs designed to help, so taking cues from programs that have worked seems like the next logical step to take.  It's obviously no a cure-all, it's a step towards reversing the idiocies prevalent in executing these kinds of programs.  I'm not a big fan of handing people a check, but again that's not exactly what I see this as.

As far as the separation of classes, I'd argue the physical separation is a symptom of the cultural separation and dissolution of the middle class.  I'm not putting forward any suggestions for solutions because I have no idea how an issue like that could be solved other than bridging the gap monetarily.  It's no secret that the wealthy have boomed in this country lately as a result of beneficial policy while the poor have stagnated.  Policy needs to be neutral, that's the first step I can see.  Who knows what could happen after that.

This is an important issue to me too, I'd hope you wouldn't just jump to the conclusion that I look down on those less fortunate and want to pay them to stop being poor.  There's a lot I don't understand about the issues facing the prevalence of poverty in the US and I want to learn more.
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Badger
badger
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« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2011, 09:32:21 PM »

There's a lot I don't understand about the issues facing the prevalence of poverty in the US and I want to learn more.

And that alone makes you nearly unique among Republicans, Fezzy, as well as a FF. Smiley
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