Some Christians in Pakistan convert fear into safety

[phk]

EDIT

Copyright Cat has claws.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

"McCarthyism"? That's an odd sort of understatement.

[Ban my account ffs!]

It's quite sad really.  Expecting the red carpet and our total understanding and respect of their culture while they offer none of the same.  That's quite an affront and it tends not to end well.

[Silent Hunter]

It's quite sad really.  Expecting the red carpet and our total understanding and respect of their culture while they offer none of the same.  That's quite an affront and it tends not to end well.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't do it anyway; it will show up the intolerance.

[John Dibble]

It's quite sad really.  Expecting the red carpet and our total understanding and respect of their culture while they offer none of the same.  That's quite an affront and it tends not to end well.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't do it anyway; it will show up the intolerance.

No, it won't. We should respect their culture and beliefs only for the parts that are good or at least innocuous. The parts that any rational person would see is harmful should not be respected, and we should make it quite clear that they should not expect people who don't hold their religious beliefs to follow their religious rules. If we do anything less then it sets the wrong expectation.

[Silent Hunter]

It's quite sad really.  Expecting the red carpet and our total understanding and respect of their culture while they offer none of the same.  That's quite an affront and it tends not to end well.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't do it anyway; it will show up the intolerance.

No, it won't. We should respect their culture and beliefs only for the parts that are good or at least innocuous. The parts that any rational person would see is harmful should not be respected, and we should make it quite clear that they should not expect people who don't hold their religious beliefs to follow their religious rules. If we do anything less then it sets the wrong expectation.

I agree. What would you define as harmful though?

[Insula Dei]

It's quite sad really.  Expecting the red carpet and our total understanding and respect of their culture while they offer none of the same.  That's quite an affront and it tends not to end well.

The only thing most Pakistanis see from the 'Christian West' regrettably are things like fighter drones, the backing of Musharraf's regime and the absence of a meaningfull stream of aid after the floods last year. Tolerance towards their culture or religion is something Pakistanis won't think makes up for things like that.

[John Dibble]

It's quite sad really.  Expecting the red carpet and our total understanding and respect of their culture while they offer none of the same.  That's quite an affront and it tends not to end well.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't do it anyway; it will show up the intolerance.

No, it won't. We should respect their culture and beliefs only for the parts that are good or at least innocuous. The parts that any rational person would see is harmful should not be respected, and we should make it quite clear that they should not expect people who don't hold their religious beliefs to follow their religious rules. If we do anything less then it sets the wrong expectation.

I agree. What would you define as harmful though?

Forcing women to wear certain clothing if they don't want to, rioting and killing people over someone drawing prophets, the mutilation of the genitals of children, killing/oppressing apostates and people of other religions in general, honor killings of women who have had sex out of marriage or even been raped against their will, preventing women from receiving a proper education, stoning homosexuals, laws which punish "blasphemy", and pretty much anything along those lines.

[Silent Hunter]

Forcing women to wear certain clothing if they don't want to, rioting and killing people over someone drawing prophets, the mutilation of the genitals of children, killing/oppressing apostates and people of other religions in general, honor killings of women who have had sex out of marriage or even been raped against their will, preventing women from receiving a proper education, stoning homosexuals, laws which punish "blasphemy", and pretty much anything along those lines.

Of course, but those are just evil things rather than anything specifically Islamic. We had a blasphemy law in the UK until recently.

[John Dibble]

Forcing women to wear certain clothing if they don't want to, rioting and killing people over someone drawing prophets, the mutilation of the genitals of children, killing/oppressing apostates and people of other religions in general, honor killings of women who have had sex out of marriage or even been raped against their will, preventing women from receiving a proper education, stoning homosexuals, laws which punish "blasphemy", and pretty much anything along those lines.

Of course, but those are just evil things rather than anything specifically Islamic. We had a blasphemy law in the UK until recently.

What you said earlier that we should respect is their culture. Even if some of them aren't specific to Islam, I don't think you can deny that any of them aren't prevalent in many cultures where Islam is the majority religion. Culture and religion generally intermarry, so in many cases you can't separate the two.

[Silent Hunter]

What you said earlier that we should respect is their culture. Even if some of them aren't specific to Islam, I don't think you can deny that any of them aren't prevalent in many cultures where Islam is the majority religion. Culture and religion generally intermarry, so in many cases you can't separate the two.

That's not "culture", though. I'm talking about religious festivals, halal and things like that.

Those things were prevalent in Christian cultures until the 20th century.

[John Dibble]

What you said earlier that we should respect is their culture. Even if some of them aren't specific to Islam, I don't think you can deny that any of them aren't prevalent in many cultures where Islam is the majority religion. Culture and religion generally intermarry, so in many cases you can't separate the two.

That's not "culture", though. I'm talking about religious festivals, halal and things like that.

Yes, it is part of culture. You can't just remove widely held beliefs and practiced actions from culture just because you don't like them - values, practices, attitudes, etc. are all part of any society's culture.

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So what? It's not like I think it was fine and dandy for them to do it.

[afleitch]

That's not "culture", though. I'm talking about religious festivals, halal and things like that.

Why should everyone be expected to respect the method of halal? You have the right to take issue with the what's how's and why's of the killing of animals.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Halal is no worse than what actually goes on in conventional western slaughterhouses.

But I'm slightly bemused by this conversation. What does religious persecution in Pakistan have to do with

[Insula Dei]

Halal is no worse than what actually goes on in conventional western slaughterhouses.

Actually, I believe there's scientific evidence suggesting that it's less painfull for the animals involved, as the traditional method of scrambling the animals brains prior to the actual act of sluaghtering them is coming under more scrutiny right now.

[Silent Hunter]

There's a difference between liking something and respecting someone's right to believe in it.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

One of the results of this wave of anti-Christian activity unfolded on a sunny afternoon this week. Azra Mustafa, a 45-year-old housemaid, shuffled into the Jamia Naeemia and asked to speak to an imam. A recent convert to Islam, the housemaid and mother of six needed to get the proper documents to prove to her neighbours that she was no longer a Christian.

“It feels great,” she said. “I moved to a Muslim neighbourhood and now I feel like we are one family.”

Each day, Mustafa, whose husband remains Christian and now lives separately from his wife and children, wakes up to attend 5 a.m. prayers before she leaves for work four hours later. By the time she returns home at 7 p.m. from a job that pays her 2,500 rupees ($28) a month, darkness has fallen over her one-room home. After dinner, a teacher comes to her home to give Mustafa and her children 90-minute lessons on Arabic and the Qur’an.

Asked if she felt safer in the wake of her conversion, Mustafa replied, “of course.”

Mustafa sat patiently as the seminary’s staff and students hustled about, preparing to attend a rally scheduled for later that afternoon — a protest that featured at least 3,000 people who at one point chanted “death to Christians and the friends of Christians” as they marched through the heart of Lahore.

As Mustafa gathered her papers together and prepared to leave, Parvaiz Masih, a 23-year-old auto rickshaw diver, walked into the office. He hoped to convert that afternoon, and had already told friends he would now be known as Muhammad Parvaiz.

“I’ve been thinking about it for two or three years,” he said, wrapped in a heavy blue shawl. “About four days ago, I decided to do it.”

A group of a dozen young men studied Parvaiz and a visitor asked if Taseer’s murder and other publicized clashes involving Christians had played a role in his decision. Parvaiz shrugged meekly and wouldn’t answer.

It wasn’t long before another Christian, 26-year-old Naseer, entered Jamia Naeemia. With a crowd of men looking on, she, too, was hesitant to elaborate on why she wanted to follow Islam, but nodded when she was asked whether she believed she would be safer as a Muslim.

Adjusting a pin on the saffron-coloured dupatta that covered her face, Naseer said she had slipped away from her parents’ home earlier in the day to make her way to the seminary. When another visitor asked again whether her personal safety played a role in her decision, Nasreen flashed a look of anger and snapped, “there’s no question.”

It was clear why Naseer and others were hesitant to speak more freely about their concerns over safety. An iman for the madrassa said he would not proceed if someone gave safety as a reason for their conversion.

Mat 10:27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny[d]? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. 30 And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

   32 “Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

   34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn

   “‘a man against his father,
   a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
   36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

   37 “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it."

[John Dibble]

There's a difference between liking something and respecting someone's right to believe in it.

There's also a difference between simply believing in something and actually taking actions based on those beliefs that result in harm to others. The latter is in neither a right or something that should be respected.

[Beet]

North Africans: Your Future.