How would you rate the various Independent Redistricting Commissions so far?
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  How would you rate the various Independent Redistricting Commissions so far?
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Author Topic: How would you rate the various Independent Redistricting Commissions so far?  (Read 577 times)
ProgressiveModerate
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« on: November 13, 2021, 11:03:00 PM »

Every state that uses a commission runs it differently.

My ratings would be:

A:

None

B:

Michigan: I like how the commission is a commission of normal people who live in the state; not politicians, political appointees, or other sorts of "insiders". It started out a bit rocky with them producing some pretty crazy maps, but their final map options for both Congressional and State Legistlature seem good, and really do a good job at ensuring partisan fairness. I feel like the relationship between commissioners was less toxic than it was on most other commissions, and I think in large part it had to do with the fact they were regular citizens and not party operatives or anything.

Arizona: This commission has been pretty quiet compared to others, but I like the diversity in the different maps they've produced so far and the tie-breaker seems pretty fair.

California: Considering how big and diverse the state is, I feel the commissioners have done a pretty good job at making initial maps that represent the state well. Simillar to Michigan, I like how this commission uses a system of "ordinary people", and overall the commissioners seem to get along well. I'm curious to see their final product.

Montana: Only 2 districts, but it seems the the tiebreaker was truly and Independent voice that held both sides in check when they pushed their bounds. The final map was basically a compromise between what the 2 parties were pushing for.

C:

Colorado: It was ok until the end where the main Dem became toxic. I also didn't like their obsession with 5-3 map at all costs, and also how they choose to follow some really ugly municipal boundaries in their final map, which kinda ended up being a light-R gerry. I wish the Hispanic groups they interviewed were a bit more focused on representing Hispanic voters than making Dem gerries as I don't think that helped either. The final map despite it's flaws does do a reasonably good job at representing COIs though in a state with quite unique geography.

D:

None

F:

Virginia: The commission here just imploded and now it's up to the VASC to draw the maps which seems to be taking the task much more seriously. The lack of an Independent tie-breaking group on the commission and also that half the commissioners were politicians itself was just a bad design from the start that was doomed to fail.

Not enough to say:

Idaho - Haven't followed closely enough and pretty inconsequential

Washington - Other than the 4 maps made by Independent commissioners we haven't really seen anything else from them.

Would ya'll agree with these ratings or have anything else to add?
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If my soul was made of stone
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2021, 11:08:15 PM »

Colorado gets an F for insisting on that hideous Weld County split.
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Skill and Chance
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2021, 02:40:39 PM »
« Edited: November 14, 2021, 02:56:44 PM by Skill and Chance »

I would put Colorado in the disaster category.  That one Dem kept incessantly proposing ridiculous gerrymanders of CO-03 to the bitter end, and then you had a couple of other commissioners willing to do almost anything to make CO-08 winnable for an R.  Then the legislative maps ended up being ridiculously pro-Dem with Biden winning >70% of the seats in each chamber with only 55% of the statewide vote.  WTF how does any of this make sense?

As the Virginia system is currently designed, the legislative maps will always end up at the state supreme court.  A deal on a congressional map is more plausible, but obviously they failed on that, too.  Fortunately, the state supreme court seems to be taking its role as a neutral arbitrator seriously and might save the the day with reasonable maps negotiated between the special masters.

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lfromnj
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2021, 03:53:45 PM »

I would put Colorado in the disaster category.  That one Dem kept incessantly proposing ridiculous gerrymanders of CO-03 to the bitter end, and then you had a couple of other commissioners willing to do almost anything to make CO-08 winnable for an R.  Then the legislative maps ended up being ridiculously pro-Dem with Biden winning >70% of the seats in each chamber with only 55% of the statewide vote.  WTF how does any of this make sense?

As the Virginia system is currently designed, the legislative maps will always end up at the state supreme court.  A deal on a congressional map is more plausible, but obviously they failed on that, too.  Fortunately, the state supreme court seems to be taking its role as a neutral arbitrator seriously and might save the the day with reasonable maps negotiated between the special masters.



The legislative maps had a different commission make them. Also the Colorado GOP was fine with them and actually hired a lawyer to defend them in court.
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Skill and Chance
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2021, 07:58:43 PM »

I would put Colorado in the disaster category.  That one Dem kept incessantly proposing ridiculous gerrymanders of CO-03 to the bitter end, and then you had a couple of other commissioners willing to do almost anything to make CO-08 winnable for an R.  Then the legislative maps ended up being ridiculously pro-Dem with Biden winning >70% of the seats in each chamber with only 55% of the statewide vote.  WTF how does any of this make sense?

As the Virginia system is currently designed, the legislative maps will always end up at the state supreme court.  A deal on a congressional map is more plausible, but obviously they failed on that, too.  Fortunately, the state supreme court seems to be taking its role as a neutral arbitrator seriously and might save the the day with reasonable maps negotiated between the special masters.



The legislative maps had a different commission make them. Also the Colorado GOP was fine with them and actually hired a lawyer to defend them in court.

Even assuming there are a bunch of narrow Biden seats that never really voted Dem before 2020, that's still shocking. 
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lfromnj
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2021, 02:21:17 AM »

I would put Colorado in the disaster category.  That one Dem kept incessantly proposing ridiculous gerrymanders of CO-03 to the bitter end, and then you had a couple of other commissioners willing to do almost anything to make CO-08 winnable for an R.  Then the legislative maps ended up being ridiculously pro-Dem with Biden winning >70% of the seats in each chamber with only 55% of the statewide vote.  WTF how does any of this make sense?

As the Virginia system is currently designed, the legislative maps will always end up at the state supreme court.  A deal on a congressional map is more plausible, but obviously they failed on that, too.  Fortunately, the state supreme court seems to be taking its role as a neutral arbitrator seriously and might save the the day with reasonable maps negotiated between the special masters.



The legislative maps had a different commission make them. Also the Colorado GOP was fine with them and actually hired a lawyer to defend them in court.

Even assuming there are a bunch of narrow Biden seats that never really voted Dem before 2020, that's still shocking.  

I can't find the exact reason but it was for the very wise reason of just not wanting the court to get involved and setting a precedent. Still surprised they went out of their way to defend them considering stuff like the Western slope for example in the state house seemed dem favorable.
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Stuart98
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2021, 02:27:45 AM »

Utah should be up there; even though the legislature completely disregarded the commission, the commission itself worked pretty well. I'd give it a B; its biggest issues stemmed from Rob Bishop  being on the commission solely to sabotage it at the behest of the legislature, but the rest of the commissioners effectively sidelined him once he started doing the "my way or the highway" balderdash.
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Skill and Chance
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2021, 01:50:39 PM »

Bumping now that the WA commission just VA-ed itself and sent everything to court.  Given that the process there has been in place for decades and always worked well until now, I think we have a new champion!
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ProgressiveModerate
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2021, 02:03:02 PM »

Washington gets an F for lack of transparency and not even doing the job
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SInNYC
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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2021, 10:16:01 AM »

Every state that uses a commission runs it differently.

B:

California: Considering how big and diverse the state is, I feel the commissioners have done a pretty good job at making initial maps that represent the state well. Simillar to Michigan, I like how this commission uses a system of "ordinary people", and overall the commissioners seem to get along well. I'm curious to see their final product.


I think CA is actually one of the easier states for a commission to do a good job on (aside from it being a lot of work due to its size). CA cities dont have dense cores, suburbs and exurbs arent as sparse as in the rest of the country, and non-desert rural areas are less sparse than in much of the country (orchards and produce vs grains and livestock). You could make a decent argument that LA (and bay area cities to a lesser degree) are really just lines drawn around collections of suburban tracts. In states with less uniformity of density, there is a big tradeoff between compactness and fairness to deal with since any compact districts in a core city are going to be doing lots of packing, typically of minority voters.

And in this context,  CA really isnt that diverse. African Americans are the group that has the most distinct voting pattern (for now), but thats not a bigger group than the national average in CA.

I'm not saying the commission didn't do a good job (I dont know).
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jimrtex
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« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2021, 10:48:50 AM »

Every state that uses a commission runs it differently.

My ratings would be:

A:

None

B:

Michigan: I like how the commission is a commission of normal people who live in the state; not politicians, political appointees, or other sorts of "insiders". It started out a bit rocky with them producing some pretty crazy maps, but their final map options for both Congressional and State Legislature seem good, and really do a good job at ensuring partisan fairness. I feel like the relationship between commissioners was less toxic than it was on most other commissions, and I think in large part it had to do with the fact they were regular citizens and not party operatives or anything.
I only watched the selection process and the initial meeting.

My concern was that "ordinary citizens" would be cowed by the experts they hired, along with the SOS, and coerced to follow the order of requirements in the constitution.

The selection process was largely by lottery, including sending out thousands of applications. Perhaps the requirement to attend dozens of meetings produced some self awareness.

The SOS who was charged with overseeing the selection process is a hack. She decided to add voluntary questions on the application so it might be more like the process in California  where the commissioners were screened.

Michigan does not have partisan registration, and voters select their primary ballot in secret. If someone says on their application they were a "Republican" then they were a Republican. Some persons said they were Democrats because they hated Republicans. I don't know why they would do that, since it would likely draw a strike from the legislature. Others said they generally vote Democrat, but have crossed over. One of the persons struck said they were a Libertarian.

There was also a question added about why they wanted to be on the commission. Those who indicated having special interest or experience in redistricting were also struck.

The lottery was stratified so that you had proportional numbers of age groups, sexes, races, regions, on the final panel. The way they did this was to weight the chance of being selected. So let's say that 2/3 of the applicants were men, then women applicants would have double the chances. Younger people who had fewer applicants also were weighted higher. But I don't think they took account that the various characteristics were not independent.

A black applicant would be more likely to be a Democrat, female, and from Detroit than the general public. When they drew a possible panel they would check its overall composition. They were out of balance, I think because they did not compensate for dependencies.

They live-streamed an accountant who was doing the selection. He explained the process and they would show his screens. They ceremoniously brought out a thumb drive, and then he copied it into an empty folder. He clicked on run, and continued to explain the process. Every so often he would check the number of attempts. It ran well into the thousands.

I watched the first meeting and it was reassuring that it was not just a random sample of voters, and many had some experiences that would help in a meeting. The temporary chair was a labor negotiator who had presided over 100s of labor negotiations.

I assume the first maps were trying to link Detroit with Republican areas. The latest maps appear to create three Democratic sinks in Detroit and Ann Arbor, but keep them around 70% D.

The map I did look at appeared to pair Kalamazoo with Ottawa County, and carved up Kent County to make it competitive (Grand Rapids was matched with Muskegon).

It will be interesting to see how predictive their suite of elections.

They did a good job of matching county boundaries, despite being stuck with equalizing populations, so you ended up with a bunch of micro-chops which are there, but you have to hunt for. They would have been much better going with the county boundaries.

Their compactness measures used the water boundaries. A district that extended into Lake Michigan was rated as long and skinny because he reached all the way to Wisconsin.

A better approach to the final decision would be to draw a much larger panel 10,000 persons, and have them rank their districts in each of the plans. The ranking for their district in a plan would be the ranking for the plan. The best plan would be chosen by Condorcet.

Arizona: This commission has been pretty quiet compared to others, but I like the diversity in the different maps they've produced so far and the tie-breaker seems pretty fair.
The Republicans seem to have learned from the 2010 disaster. Arizona has pretty stupid provisions. With only five commissioner, the two Democrats and the one "independent" lined up for a bunch of 3:2 votes. Also why Arizona has an extensive open meeting laws, they don't apply to the one agency you would most want to have open meetings, since it was created by the Arizona Constitution. In 2011, you had the map drawing firm going over to the "independent" commissioner's house and drawing maps. They agreed to have a Republican and Democrat legal advisors. The Democrats and the "independent" then chose both firms. "We want these advisors for us, and these advisors for you."

California: Considering how big and diverse the state is, I feel the commissioners have done a pretty good job at making initial maps that represent the state well. Simillar to Michigan, I like how this commission uses a system of "ordinary people", and overall the commissioners seem to get along well. I'm curious to see their final product.
The selection process is not really similar to that in Michigan. Candidates have to file a resume, along with 3 recommendations. Finalists were interviewed. Candidates also had to file financial disclosure reports, which "ordinary people" do not like being made public.

In 2011, one of the commissioners was the former head of the Census Bureau. He would not had a chance in Michigan. There were also several lawyers, who would be more accustomed to evaluate the advice of legal advisors.

The selection process has a geographic bias. Persons who live in the Sacramento or Bay Areas are more likely to apply. Since the auditors doing the selection were in Sacramento they had a regional bias. Applicants were classified by region, and to ensure a "diverse" panel they had to make sure there were applicants from each of the northern and central regions. Southern California (LA, Orange, and San Diego counties) were treated as a big amorphous blob. They also mixed up Santa Clara and Santa Cruz counties. So people from San Jose were in the Central Coast, while those from Santa Cruz were Bay Area.


Colorado: It was ok until the end where the main Dem became toxic. I also didn't like their obsession with 5-3 map at all costs, and also how they choose to follow some really ugly municipal boundaries in their final map, which kinda ended up being a light-R gerry. I wish the Hispanic groups they interviewed were a bit more focused on representing Hispanic voters than making Dem gerries as I don't think that helped either. The final map despite it's flaws does do a reasonably good job at representing COIs though in a state with quite unique geography.
I had high hopes for Colorado since it was the legislative staff drawing the maps, which the commissioners then listened for comments and made recommendations for changes. I also liked that they had two commissions.

Observing municipal boundaries is in the constitution. You might not like the Colorado city boundaries, but that hardly is to blame on the commission. I actually like that they have to adhere to that discipline. Someone who was lay would claim they were matching city boundaries but then ignore them for partisan reasons and claim they
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Schiff for Senate
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2021, 03:08:02 PM »
« Edited: November 19, 2021, 03:15:53 PM by CentristRepublican »

CO's 'independent' commission pretty much performed a mild Republican gerrymander. Any fool can see that a 5-3 or even 5-2-1 map would be in order, not the nonsense 4-3-1 map they doled out. It opens the possibility to an outrageous 4-4 map in a state that went to Biden comfortably. As for AZ, I think the commission isn't that bad, but their maps seem to be quite GOP-biased, too. My state's commission is several steps better than CO's and a few steps better than AZ's, but I consider the map they've proposed first to also be GOP-tilted. The best and most truly independent commission thus far has been MI's, which has produced fair maps with varying districts and compositions. MT's commission also created a pretty fair map - in a state like MT, when there are only 2 distircts, I think it's common sense that one of them is lean to likely Republican and the other is safe Republican; Democrats aren't 'entitled' to a competitive seat there. ID's commission is also all right; I'm very neutral because no matter what you do the map should come out to be 2 safe Republican seats, which is what happened. I think they also didn't disrupt the state's political regions and geography, so a good job on that count, too. VA's commission seems to have the slightest of GOP tilts, but I'm not worried right now about what they're doing. WA's commission is weak but I don't care that much.

So in concluding - I'm satisfied with the maps in MT and ID, I am nonchalent about WA, I trust MI's commission to pass a fair map, am currently not worried about VA, am slightly worried about what happens in my state, am quite annoyed with what's going on in AZ, and am steamed at what happened in CO. I hope CO Democrats find some way or another to take back the 'independent' commission and create a brutal 7-1 (or even 8-0, it's possible by making all districts include a part of the Denver area) gerrymander.

Utah should be up there; even though the legislature completely disregarded the commission, the commission itself worked pretty well. I'd give it a B; its biggest issues stemmed from Rob Bishop  being on the commission solely to sabotage it at the behest of the legislature, but the rest of the commissioners effectively sidelined him once he started doing the "my way or the highway" balderdash.

I'm surprised the commission included a known partisan Republican in the first place; that seems like the recipe for the UT 'independent' commission's maps to end up like the one in neighbouring CO (i.e., a supposedly 'fair' map that really benefits the GOP).


EDIT: I learned that the VA commission kind of excluded itself from the process for whatever reason. Annoying but still better than the commissions in CO and AZ.
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Stuart98
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2021, 03:40:52 PM »

Utah should be up there; even though the legislature completely disregarded the commission, the commission itself worked pretty well. I'd give it a B; its biggest issues stemmed from Rob Bishop  being on the commission solely to sabotage it at the behest of the legislature, but the rest of the commissioners effectively sidelined him once he started doing the "my way or the highway" balderdash.

I'm surprised the commission included a known partisan Republican in the first place; that seems like the recipe for the UT 'independent' commission's maps to end up like the one in neighbouring CO (i.e., a supposedly 'fair' map that really benefits the GOP).
The UIRC was an appointee commission; two democrats and two republicans were appointed by the house and senate speaker/president/minority leaders, one independent was appointed by legislative republican leadership in both houses, one by democratic leadership in both houses, and the chair was an independent appointed by the governor. Bishop and Hillyard were both I think appointed specifically to give the commission maps a GOP skew, though Hillyard turned out much more fair minded than expected. There weren't any real shenanigans with any of the other appointees, which was kinda a pleasant surprise; you'd expect the GOP legislative leaders would have found some totally not a republican to appoint as their independent, but instead their appointee (Baker) was probably slightly Democratic leaning. Kinda a bullet dodged; if we get the opportunity over the next decade to create a binding commission, reforming the appointment process to have less potential for shenanigans is one of the things we should do while we're at it.
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