IDS Budget and Tax Committee

[Yelnoc]

As of April 29, 2010, we had a $2 Billion dollar surplus.  That means that, regardless of our actual spending levels before then, we ended up with a $2 Billion surplus.  Badger, If we discover that this doesn't match up can you just use your handwave powers so that we can still have a $2 billion surplus.

[Badger]

As of April 29, 2010, we had a $2 Billion dollar surplus.  That means that, regardless of our actual spending levels before then, we ended up with a $2 Billion surplus.  Badger, If we discover that this doesn't match up can you just use your handwave powers so that we can still have a $2 billion surplus.

It all depends. The economy tanking has had a real hit on tax revenues.

It'll all come down to tax revenue and spending, but I doubt you'll have anywhere near that amount of surplus to begin with.

Could you link the $2 Bil surplus estimate, please?

[Yelnoc]

As of April 29, 2010, we had a $2 Billion dollar surplus.  That means that, regardless of our actual spending levels before then, we ended up with a $2 Billion surplus.  Badger, If we discover that this doesn't match up can you just use your handwave powers so that we can still have a $2 billion surplus.

It all depends. The economy tanking has had a real hit on tax revenues.

It'll all come down to tax revenue and spending, but I doubt you'll have anywhere near that amount of surplus to begin with.

Could you link the $2 Bil surplus estimate, please?

Right Here.https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=101096.msg2467899#msg2467899

And I meant that we had a surplus as of the time we were told we had a surplus.  What we have now will be different, probably a lot less.

[Badger]

As of April 29, 2010, we had a $2 Billion dollar surplus.  That means that, regardless of our actual spending levels before then, we ended up with a $2 Billion surplus.  Badger, If we discover that this doesn't match up can you just use your handwave powers so that we can still have a $2 billion surplus.

It all depends. The economy tanking has had a real hit on tax revenues.

It'll all come down to tax revenue and spending, but I doubt you'll have anywhere near that amount of surplus to begin with.

Could you link the $2 Bil surplus estimate, please?

Right Here.https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=101096.msg2467899#msg2467899

And I meant that we had a surplus as of the time we were told we had a surplus.  What we have now will be different, probably a lot less.

Gotcha, and thanks.

Again, let me offer this piece of advice: To maintain consistency in budgeting its very important for the GM's Office and the IDS Region to be on the same page and using the same structure.

For that reason I suggest using this website. If you pick a state in the IDS (Texas for example) and click on spending for 2011, the lower right hand corner will show the State's real life spending divided into 6 major categories (pensions, health care, education, etc). If you click on 2011 in that graph, it takes you to a slightly more detailed breakdown of spending with a couple additional spending categories ("general government", "interest", etc. see Texas here), and each of those spending categories can be expanded to various subcategories (e.g. Education subdivides into spending for pre-primary through secondary education, tertiary education, and education not definable by level; each of those subcategories can also be subdivided into sub-sub categories of spending for even more details on spending.

The taxes link for each state offers similar breakdowns of tax revenues from various sources in different levels of breakdown, from general to detailed. Whether you guys want to use the most detailed breakdowns available with all the spending/taxing subcategories available, or if you want to just use the most basic breakdown of about half a general categories listed here, is totally up to you. Likewise, the actual spending and taxing levels are totally up to you gas well.

However, propose using this website's basic structure to design your own regional budget. It allows me as GM to make ready comparisons to RL spending and tax revenues levels, and again keeps us all on the same page. Its been invaluable in getting the Mideast budget off the ground.

But as always, its your game and your decision. Any thoughts or comments here?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I am quite certain that Clause 4, Sub-clause B is a valid part of the 2010 Federal Stimulus Act. Did you make sure to check under Section 2, Sub-section e?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Sections 6 & 7 of the Expanding Choice Initiative, as passed on July 18, 2005:

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     The School Choice Initiative, as passed on November 21, 2005:

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     Sections 1 & 2 of the Public Assistance in Abortion Ban Initiative, as passed on November 21, 2005:

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     That's it for the first 100 initiatives. For some reason there were very few appropriations in this batch.

[Yelnoc]

As of April 29, 2010, we had a $2 Billion dollar surplus.  That means that, regardless of our actual spending levels before then, we ended up with a $2 Billion surplus.  Badger, If we discover that this doesn't match up can you just use your handwave powers so that we can still have a $2 billion surplus.

It all depends. The economy tanking has had a real hit on tax revenues.

It'll all come down to tax revenue and spending, but I doubt you'll have anywhere near that amount of surplus to begin with.

Could you link the $2 Bil surplus estimate, please?

Right Here.https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=101096.msg2467899#msg2467899

And I meant that we had a surplus as of the time we were told we had a surplus.  What we have now will be different, probably a lot less.

Gotcha, and thanks.

Again, let me offer this piece of advice: To maintain consistency in budgeting its very important for the GM's Office and the IDS Region to be on the same page and using the same structure.

For that reason I suggest using this website. If you pick a state in the IDS (Texas for example) and click on spending for 2011, the lower right hand corner will show the State's real life spending divided into 6 major categories (pensions, health care, education, etc). If you click on 2011 in that graph, it takes you to a slightly more detailed breakdown of spending with a couple additional spending categories ("general government", "interest", etc. see Texas here), and each of those spending categories can be expanded to various subcategories (e.g. Education subdivides into spending for pre-primary through secondary education, tertiary education, and education not definable by level; each of those subcategories can also be subdivided into sub-sub categories of spending for even more details on spending.

The taxes link for each state offers similar breakdowns of tax revenues from various sources in different levels of breakdown, from general to detailed. Whether you guys want to use the most detailed breakdowns available with all the spending/taxing subcategories available, or if you want to just use the most basic breakdown of about half a general categories listed here, is totally up to you. Likewise, the actual spending and taxing levels are totally up to you gas well.

However, propose using this website's basic structure to design your own regional budget. It allows me as GM to make ready comparisons to RL spending and tax revenues levels, and again keeps us all on the same page. Its been invaluable in getting the Mideast budget off the ground.

But as always, its your game and your decision. Any thoughts or comments here?

That's a splendid idea; thank you very much for showing us that website.  This will make the project a lot easier.  I think we'll go as in-depth as we can in certain areas and leave the rest in the "basic" format if that's possible. 

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I couldn't figure it out, but then my legalese isn't the greatest.  If you can point out the problem, I'll be glad to adjust the balance.  Also, great job with cataloging the initiatives.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     2.e.4.B is this:

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[Yelnoc]

Budget

This category organizes previously passed initiatives, bills, and the like into Badger's categories.  Once we have hard numbers, I'm going to put this all in a spreadsheet for aesthetics' sake.

Regional Spending

Pensions
-Base: 39.6 billion (not including Puerto Rico)

Healthcare
-Base: 152.4 billion (not including Puerto Rico)

Education
-Base: 210.7 billion (not including Puerto Rico)
-School Choice Initiative
-Southeastern Educational Incentive Act

Defense
-Base: 0.6 billion (not including Puerto Rico)

Welfare
-Base: 48.7 billion (not including Puerto Rico)

Protection
-Base: 64.5 billion (not including Puerto Rico)

Transportation
-Base: 56.1 billion (not including Puerto Rico)
-Duke Greenway Road Creation Act
-Road Creation Act- Blanche Lincoln Boulevard- Monticello, Ark.

General Government
-Base: 22.3 billion (not including Puerto Rico)

Other Spending
-Base: 111.8 billion (not including Puerto Rico)
-Pentagram Creation Act

Interest
-Base: 25 billion (not including Puerto Rico)
1%

Total Spending
-Base: 823.3 billion (not including Puerto Rico)

Gross Public Debt
-Base: 726.8 billion (not including Puerto Rico)

Regional Revenues

Bottom Line

Balance

Non-Budgetary Statistics

Population
Alabama           4,708,708
Arkansas          2,889,450
Florida            18,537,969
Georgia             9,829,211
Kentucky           4,314,113
Louisina            4,492,076
Mississippi         2,951,996
North Carolina   9,380,884
Puerto Rico        3,967,288
South Carolina   4,561,242
Tennessee         6,296,254
Texas               24,782,302
Total                80,882,282

Federal Deficit: $401,040,000,000 (as of November 2010)

[Yelnoc]

Badger, we're going to need your help with the "Interest" section.  Also, has there been inflation in Atlasian currency since July 23, 2010?

Looking through those categories, I think I will need to go back and add bills to the categories that do not explicit allocate money but imply that there is money involved so that we can get a better overall picture.

[Yelnoc]

     2.e.4.B is this:

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Hmm...the copy of the act on page 1 only went through section Section 2, Sub-section A, Clause 10. 

[Associate Justice PiT]

     There shouldn't be a 2.a.10 in the bill. For reference, this is the bill.

[Brandon H]

     I am fine with that proposal. Actually, I think I might make one post at the beginning of each week & edit it to include any new findings as the week progresses. That should be a good way to keep my thoughts organized.

Sounds great.

I was looking through wiki and, unless I read it wrong, the only laws cataloged are initiatives.  I realize this is probably outside the scope of this committee but, if that's correct, something must be done to update it.

     Indeed, not a single law has been catalogued since the creation of the Legislature. I have a lot to do this weekend, but I'll try to get at least a couple of laws up on the Wiki.

Sounds good.  Do you, by any chance, know where to find the old legislative threads?  Search didn't turn up anything.

     Prior to the creation of the Imperial Legislature, except for a universal legislature that briefly existed in 2006, all laws were passed by referendum. You should be able to find all of the old voting booths looking on the Voting Booth board.

I made an effort to add initiatives and links to the voting booths somewhere in the wiki. I'll see if I can find it.

This page contains links to most elections, though is missing 2009.
https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Southeast_Regional_Elections

You probably found this one already, but here is a list of all initiatives (prior to the creation of the legislature).
https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Southeast_Law

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I am fine with that proposal. Actually, I think I might make one post at the beginning of each week & edit it to include any new findings as the week progresses. That should be a good way to keep my thoughts organized.

Sounds great.

I was looking through wiki and, unless I read it wrong, the only laws cataloged are initiatives.  I realize this is probably outside the scope of this committee but, if that's correct, something must be done to update it.

     Indeed, not a single law has been catalogued since the creation of the Legislature. I have a lot to do this weekend, but I'll try to get at least a couple of laws up on the Wiki.

Sounds good.  Do you, by any chance, know where to find the old legislative threads?  Search didn't turn up anything.

     Prior to the creation of the Imperial Legislature, except for a universal legislature that briefly existed in 2006, all laws were passed by referendum. You should be able to find all of the old voting booths looking on the Voting Booth board.

I made an effort to add initiatives and links to the voting booths somewhere in the wiki. I'll see if I can find it.

This page contains links to most elections, though is missing 2009.
https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Southeast_Regional_Elections

You probably found this one already, but here is a list of all initiatives (prior to the creation of the legislature).
https://uselectionatlas.org/AFEWIKI/index.php/Southeast_Law

     Indeed, I've been working at updating the laws & have just sectioned it off by year, though I am planning on assigning proper numbers to all of the newer initiatives & bills. There are actually many laws that are not yet on there, but I've made it up to April 2009.

     Once that is up-to-date, I want to get all of the elections up there. Granted, most of them aren't interesting, but we ought to have them up anyway,

[Yelnoc]

     There shouldn't be a 2.a.10 in the bill. For reference, this is the bill.

Thanks, my copy on page 1 looks outdated.  I will update the balance.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Section 2 of the Safe Abortion Initiative, as passed on February 20, 2006:

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     Somehow, there do not appear to be any appropriations or any other taxes or fees imposed between 101 & 150. Maybe the IDS really is fiscally conservative.

[Badger]

Badger, we're going to need your help with the "Interest" section.  Also, has there been inflation in Atlasian currency since July 23, 2010?

Looking through those categories, I think I will need to go back and add bills to the categories that do not explicit allocate money but imply that there is money involved so that we can get a better overall picture.

Replied to your PM asking this (Florida was great last week ), but I'll note it here for everyone.

Interest has been, and continues to, run at a minimal rate of about 1% annually. If you want to jack everything up (revenues and expenditures) by about 1%, or just leave it as is for simplicities sake is fine with me.

[Yelnoc]

Badger, we're going to need your help with the "Interest" section.  Also, has there been inflation in Atlasian currency since July 23, 2010?

Looking through those categories, I think I will need to go back and add bills to the categories that do not explicit allocate money but imply that there is money involved so that we can get a better overall picture.

Replied to your PM asking this (Florida was great last week ), but I'll note it here for everyone.

Interest has been, and continues to, run at a minimal rate of about 1% annually. If you want to jack everything up (revenues and expenditures) by about 1%, or just leave it as is for simplicities sake is fine with me.

Sounds good. 

Sorry to everyone for not getting much done; track season is in full gear.  Maybe I'll be able to put some time in Thursday.

I was thinking about something.  Each category should have a base, the budget that was (hypothetically) created when this region was formed.  All initiatives and bills should effect this base value rather than creating a new value.  With that said, where do those starting numbers come from?  Should we find this the same as population and add up real life state spending and revenue?  The problem there is that we would be heavily in debt yet we are supposed to have $2 billion surplus.  Could a item called "moderator love" be added to the "Interest" category to right this?

[Associate Justice PiT]

Badger, we're going to need your help with the "Interest" section.  Also, has there been inflation in Atlasian currency since July 23, 2010?

Looking through those categories, I think I will need to go back and add bills to the categories that do not explicit allocate money but imply that there is money involved so that we can get a better overall picture.

Replied to your PM asking this (Florida was great last week ), but I'll note it here for everyone.

Interest has been, and continues to, run at a minimal rate of about 1% annually. If you want to jack everything up (revenues and expenditures) by about 1%, or just leave it as is for simplicities sake is fine with me.

Sounds good. 

Sorry to everyone for not getting much done; track season is in full gear.  Maybe I'll be able to put some time in Thursday.

I was thinking about something.  Each category should have a base, the budget that was (hypothetically) created when this region was formed.  All initiatives and bills should effect this base value rather than creating a new value.  With that said, where do those starting numbers come from?  Should we find this the same as population and add up real life state spending and revenue?  The problem there is that we would be heavily in debt yet we are supposed to have $2 billion surplus.  Could a item called "moderator love" be added to the "Interest" category to right this?

     I suggest that we adopt the sum of the current revenue & spending of all the states that comprise the region in real life to be the base figures for the region.

[Yelnoc]

Badger, we're going to need your help with the "Interest" section.  Also, has there been inflation in Atlasian currency since July 23, 2010?

Looking through those categories, I think I will need to go back and add bills to the categories that do not explicit allocate money but imply that there is money involved so that we can get a better overall picture.

Replied to your PM asking this (Florida was great last week ), but I'll note it here for everyone.

Interest has been, and continues to, run at a minimal rate of about 1% annually. If you want to jack everything up (revenues and expenditures) by about 1%, or just leave it as is for simplicities sake is fine with me.

Sounds good.  

Sorry to everyone for not getting much done; track season is in full gear.  Maybe I'll be able to put some time in Thursday.

I was thinking about something.  Each category should have a base, the budget that was (hypothetically) created when this region was formed.  All initiatives and bills should effect this base value rather than creating a new value.  With that said, where do those starting numbers come from?  Should we find this the same as population and add up real life state spending and revenue?  The problem there is that we would be heavily in debt yet we are supposed to have $2 billion surplus.  Could a item called "moderator love" be added to the "Interest" category to right this?

     I suggest that we adopt the sum of the current revenue & spending of all the states that comprise the region in real life to be the base figures for the region.

Added to expenses.  I'll do it for revenues on Thursday.

I wasn't sure whether to add up the state totals for interest and gross public debt; in the end I did but I can remove it if that was wrong.  Also, does anyone know where to find budgetary statistics for Puerto Rico?  Badger's excellent site did not include PR.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Section 2 of The Off-Shore Religious Organizations Initiative, as passed on April 24, 2007:

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     Also note the Help The Southeast Study For Serious Act, which makes use of funds provided to the region by the The Help Atlasia Study Act of 2009.

[Badger]

Badger, we're going to need your help with the "Interest" section.  Also, has there been inflation in Atlasian currency since July 23, 2010?

Looking through those categories, I think I will need to go back and add bills to the categories that do not explicit allocate money but imply that there is money involved so that we can get a better overall picture.

Replied to your PM asking this (Florida was great last week ), but I'll note it here for everyone.

Interest has been, and continues to, run at a minimal rate of about 1% annually. If you want to jack everything up (revenues and expenditures) by about 1%, or just leave it as is for simplicities sake is fine with me.

Sounds good.  

Sorry to everyone for not getting much done; track season is in full gear.  Maybe I'll be able to put some time in Thursday.

I was thinking about something.  Each category should have a base, the budget that was (hypothetically) created when this region was formed.  All initiatives and bills should effect this base value rather than creating a new value.  With that said, where do those starting numbers come from?  Should we find this the same as population and add up real life state spending and revenue?  The problem there is that we would be heavily in debt yet we are supposed to have $2 billion surplus.  Could a item called "moderator love" be added to the "Interest" category to right this?

     I suggest that we adopt the sum of the current revenue & spending of all the states that comprise the region in real life to be the base figures for the region.

Added to expenses.  I'll do it for revenues on Thursday.

I wasn't sure whether to add up the state totals for interest and gross public debt; in the end I did but I can remove it if that was wrong.  Also, does anyone know where to find budgetary statistics for Puerto Rico?  Badger's excellent site did not include PR.

My advise re: PR---fake it.

Seriously though, its only a relatively small share of the region's population (and thus, its economy), so unless you get lucky and easily find a website with readily available info, just base your figures on all the other states you have the figures for. If you really want, we can jack up the total spending and revenue numbers from those "mainland" states we have figures for by about 5% to account for PR's approximate share of the region's population, but even that's hardly necessary.

[Badger]

Badger, we're going to need your help with the "Interest" section.  Also, has there been inflation in Atlasian currency since July 23, 2010?

Looking through those categories, I think I will need to go back and add bills to the categories that do not explicit allocate money but imply that there is money involved so that we can get a better overall picture.

Replied to your PM asking this (Florida was great last week ), but I'll note it here for everyone.

Interest has been, and continues to, run at a minimal rate of about 1% annually. If you want to jack everything up (revenues and expenditures) by about 1%, or just leave it as is for simplicities sake is fine with me.

Sounds good. 

Sorry to everyone for not getting much done; track season is in full gear.  Maybe I'll be able to put some time in Thursday.

I was thinking about something.  Each category should have a base, the budget that was (hypothetically) created when this region was formed.  All initiatives and bills should effect this base value rather than creating a new value.  With that said, where do those starting numbers come from?  Should we find this the same as population and add up real life state spending and revenue?  The problem there is that we would be heavily in debt yet we are supposed to have $2 billion surplus.  Could a item called "moderator love" be added to the "Interest" category to right this?

     I suggest that we adopt the sum of the current revenue & spending of all the states that comprise the region in real life to be the base figures for the region.

Agreed re: spending. If you decide to cut or raise spending in any particular area then services may decrease/improve accordingly from current real world standards in IDS states. Though if any specific idea/policy is implemented to minimize the effects of the cuts on actual services provided, I'll consider it accordingly. The key word here is "specific", though; simply directing IDS agencies "to weed out waste and fraud" will account for little.

Re: revenues though, the key will be what tax rates the IDS sets compared to RL. For example, see these posts re: the Mideast budget:

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2789445#msg2789445
https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=128143.msg2769048#msg2769048

In the first link I "averaged" the RL income tax rates for states in the Mideast region (my calculations are explained therein), and compared it to the proposed regional income tax rate and determined the Mideast is facing almost a 50% drop in income tax revenue if the proposal is adopted.

In the second link I similarly averaged the RL state sales tax levels to a "regional" rate of 5.7% with groceries and prescriptions exempted. The Mideast proposal has adopted this level so sales tax revenue levels will be similar to RL sales tax revenues.

The point here is I agree, PiT, that RL spending levels should be the base for RL government services in the IDS. The revenue levels however will be of course based on whatever tax levels you set, using RL tax rates as the basis for computing the revenue it produces. Does that make sense?

[Associate Justice PiT]

     I don't know where I placed the link I had, but the region's laws are based on the 2006 Georgia statutes. As of 2009, Georgia had multiple income tax brackets, ranging from 1-6%.

     To my knowledge no significant changes have been made in that area. I do not think that any significant changes have been made in re sales tax either, though we now have a sales tax on marijuana, something which no real life state does for obvious reasons.

[Yelnoc]

     I don't know where I placed the link I had, but the region's laws are based on the 2006 Georgia statutes. As of 2009, Georgia had multiple income tax brackets, ranging from 1-6%.

     To my knowledge no significant changes have been made in that area. I do not think that any significant changes have been made in re sales tax either, though we now have a sales tax on marijuana, something which no real life state does for obvious reasons.

As far as revenues go, we should probably average up all the tax rates from different states rather than base it off Georgia; otherwise we will be severely in debt.  And I have a full schedule today and tomorrow; hopefully by Wednesday I will find time.

If anyone wants to help, average up the revenues.  I'm not asking you, PiT (you've done plenty already), but we have two legislators, a Viceroy, an Attorney General, and two senators who are more than welcome to pitch in