Libya: Benghazi unrest, to Civil War, to a new government and Gaddafi's death.

[Gustaf]

And the west is watching all this without doing anything...

Who are we to be world police and impose our cultural values on others? You don't want to be a colonialist imperialist, do you?

[Antonio the Sixth]

And the west is watching all this without doing anything...

Who are we to be world police and impose our cultural values on others? You don't want to be a colonialist imperialist, do you?

I suppose this strawman wasn't directed to me since I've never said nothing that could lead you to think I'm a dictator-loving "relativist". It would be nice if you didn't involve the entire forum in your feuds against a couple of users, though.

[Gustaf]

And the west is watching all this without doing anything...

Who are we to be world police and impose our cultural values on others? You don't want to be a colonialist imperialist, do you?

I suppose this strawman wasn't directed to me since I've never said nothing that could lead you to think I'm a dictator-loving "relativist". It would be nice if you didn't involve the entire forum in your feuds against a couple of users, though.

Actually, what I said had nothing to with the forum or anyone on it. It was more a general comment on how the world (especially the left of the world) reacts whenever the West actually intervenes anywhere.

[Eraserhead]

And what should "the West" be doing exactly, gentlemen?

[afleitch]

And what should "the West" be doing exactly, gentlemen?

Exactly what we didn't do during the Rwandan civil war.

[John Dibble]

Gaddafi may have made some headway in regaining a bit of control in his recent attacks. Also, eastern rebel leaders are considering asking for foreign military support in the form of airstrikes against Gaddafi military assets.

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Witnesses-Pro-Gadhafi-Forces-Attack-2-Eastern-Towns-117227003.html
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/africa/news/article_1623125.php/Gaddafi-attempts-to-retake-several-Libyan-cities-1st-Lead

[Silent Hunter]

He hasn't taken Brega.

[RI]

I'm pretty pacifistic, but this seems like a case where quick, precise intervention could save a lot of lives, certainly more than it would cost.

[ilikeverin]

At the very least, it sounds like there might be some sort of British operation to get rid of Gaddafi's supplies of chemical weapons, which make sense to get rid of.

[opebo]

I wonder if one would be allowed to venture the opinion that it would more more advisable to intervene on the side of Gaddafi or if that would be considered a 'trolling' opinion - or perhaps hateful or something of that nature.

If I were to venture such an observation, it would be based on the many years of reliable oil-delivery the gentleman has to his credit, and the fact that however wonderful the bearded 'democracy activists' or rebel-freedom-fighters may be, they are a complete unknown regarding the oils.

[John Dibble]

I wonder if one would be allowed to venture the opinion that it would more more advisable to intervene on the side of Gaddafi or if that would be considered a 'trolling' opinion - or perhaps hateful or something of that nature.

If I were to venture such an observation, it would be based on the many years of reliable oil-delivery the gentleman has to his credit, and the fact that however wonderful the bearded 'democracy activists' or rebel-freedom-fighters may be, they are a complete unknown regarding the oils.

Well, ignoring any ethical considerations one might make in regards to this position, I would say that Gaddafi's reliability on the oil front at this point would be highly questionable. Even if the rebellion at large was quashed I imagine you would still have a number of guerrilla groups remaining for quite some time who would be more than happy to disrupt Gaddafi's oil operations at every turn, especially considering that the pro-Gaddafi intervention by the West would be for the sake of getting that oil in this scenario.

Really, any government that ends up running Libya is going to want to sell that oil - the money from that is going to be essential to running anything, I imagine.

[Хahar 🤔]

Just as Tunisia and Egypt influenced others, Libya may as well. If the country falls into a protracted civil war and humanitarian crisis, particularly if Qaddafi is able to re-take cities, this may have a chilling effect on protests elsewhere, particularly raising awareness of potential violent dynamics and the risks inherent in attempting a revolution. Such a chilling effect, at this point, would not be entirely unwelcome.

It's really rather difficult to come up with an adequate response to this.

[Insula Dei]

Just as Tunisia and Egypt influenced others, Libya may as well. If the country falls into a protracted civil war and humanitarian crisis, particularly if Qaddafi is able to re-take cities, this may have a chilling effect on protests elsewhere, particularly raising awareness of potential violent dynamics and the risks inherent in attempting a revolution. Such a chilling effect, at this point, would not be entirely unwelcome.

It's really rather difficult to come up with an adequate response to this.

Don't try to understand it, Xahar, just accept that them sandpeople don't really count when that Human Rights thing is discussed.

[Stranger in a strange land]

If I were to venture such an observation, it would be based on the many years of reliable oil-delivery the gentleman has to his credit, and the fact that however wonderful the bearded 'democracy activists' or rebel-freedom-fighters may be, they are a complete unknown regarding the oils.

They have no choice but to keep delivering the oils, even if they don't want to. What else are they going to do with it, drink it?

[Beet]

Just as Tunisia and Egypt influenced others, Libya may as well. If the country falls into a protracted civil war and humanitarian crisis, particularly if Qaddafi is able to re-take cities, this may have a chilling effect on protests elsewhere, particularly raising awareness of potential violent dynamics and the risks inherent in attempting a revolution. Such a chilling effect, at this point, would not be entirely unwelcome.

It's really rather difficult to come up with an adequate response to this.

Don't try to understand it, Xahar, just accept that them sandpeople don't really count when that Human Rights thing is discussed.

My point is that you guys are taking a rather simplistic view of things, but I don't expect you to understand.

[opebo]

...the many years of reliable oil-delivery the gentleman has to his credit, and the fact that however wonderful the bearded 'democracy activists' or rebel-freedom-fighters may be, they are a complete unknown regarding the oils.

They have no choice but to keep delivering the oils, even if they don't want to. What else are they going to do with it, drink it?

Well, that's a reasonable point, however in allegiance with new bearded governments which seem definitely to be coming in Bahrain, Oman, and no doubt down the road in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, UAE, and Iraq, coupled with the already-extant bearded regime in Iran, it is easy to imagine a kind of concerted effort to strangulate the infidels.  After all, selling 80% of the oil at twice the price does equal more revenue, and you get the added enjoyment of seeing america collapse again.

[Verily]

Just as Tunisia and Egypt influenced others, Libya may as well. If the country falls into a protracted civil war and humanitarian crisis, particularly if Qaddafi is able to re-take cities, this may have a chilling effect on protests elsewhere, particularly raising awareness of potential violent dynamics and the risks inherent in attempting a revolution. Such a chilling effect, at this point, would not be entirely unwelcome.

It's really rather difficult to come up with an adequate response to this.

Don't try to understand it, Xahar, just accept that them sandpeople don't really count when that Human Rights thing is discussed.

My point is that you guys are taking a rather simplistic view of things, but I don't expect you to understand.

Realpolitik is just as simplistic and naive as any other international perspective, especially from those who proclaim wisdom beyond their capacity to know.

[Hash]

Just as Tunisia and Egypt influenced others, Libya may as well. If the country falls into a protracted civil war and humanitarian crisis, particularly if Qaddafi is able to re-take cities, this may have a chilling effect on protests elsewhere, particularly raising awareness of potential violent dynamics and the risks inherent in attempting a revolution. Such a chilling effect, at this point, would not be entirely unwelcome.

It's really rather difficult to come up with an adequate response to this.

Don't try to understand it, Xahar, just accept that them sandpeople don't really count when that Human Rights thing is discussed.

My point is that you guys are taking a rather simplistic view of things, but I don't expect you to understand.

Yes, we're ignorant naive idiots who aren't as naturally brilliant as you are. Sorry

[Antonio the Sixth]

Just as Tunisia and Egypt influenced others, Libya may as well. If the country falls into a protracted civil war and humanitarian crisis, particularly if Qaddafi is able to re-take cities, this may have a chilling effect on protests elsewhere, particularly raising awareness of potential violent dynamics and the risks inherent in attempting a revolution. Such a chilling effect, at this point, would not be entirely unwelcome.

It's really rather difficult to come up with an adequate response to this.

Don't try to understand it, Xahar, just accept that them sandpeople don't really count when that Human Rights thing is discussed.

My point is that you guys are taking a rather simplistic view of things, but I don't expect you to understand.

LOL, it's fascinating to see how short-sighted egoism is considered as a sort of wisdom in foreign politics. Of course you didn't invent it, it's a political doctrine as old as the humanity. And despite centuries of human history showed how silly it was, I fear it will never die.

[Beet]

The issue isn't "realpolitik." The reason why I am concerned about protests is that when they turn out the way the situation in Libya has turned out, it can end up hurting more people than helping. Isn't the fact that the country has fallen into civil war, some 140,000 people have been displaced from their homes, and some 6,000 people have been killed something to consider? Or are these facts on the ground irrelevant because we were taught in school that any armed uprising purporting to speak in the name of liberal democracy is automatically worthwile?

[Antonio the Sixth]

What about helping removing the dictators who are causing this bloodshed ? The only reasons why there are so much deaths is because the west is cowardly waiting to see who prevails.

[Zarn]

The issue isn't "realpolitik." The reason why I am concerned about protests is that when they turn out the way the situation in Libya has turned out, it can end up hurting more people than helping. Isn't the fact that the country has fallen into civil war, some 140,000 people have been displaced from their homes, and some 6,000 people have been killed something to consider? Or are these facts on the ground irrelevant because we were taught in school that any armed uprising purporting to speak in the name of liberal democracy is automatically worthwile?

Liberty is the most important thing.

[Beet]

The issue isn't "realpolitik." The reason why I am concerned about protests is that when they turn out the way the situation in Libya has turned out, it can end up hurting more people than helping. Isn't the fact that the country has fallen into civil war, some 140,000 people have been displaced from their homes, and some 6,000 people have been killed something to consider? Or are these facts on the ground irrelevant because we were taught in school that any armed uprising purporting to speak in the name of liberal democracy is automatically worthwile?

Liberty is the most important thing.

Is it? Where was the liberty on 9/12 when the Patriot Act was being proposed? In theory, "give me liberty or give me death" is what Westerners tend to admire, but in reality, even most Westerners will take government provided security over physical danger or death. It's a mistake to project our own values and dreams onto other people's lived reality. The lived reality in Libya right now isn't very good.

@ Antonio: the West should definitely consider intervention, as I've mentioned many times.

[Zarn]

The issue isn't "realpolitik." The reason why I am concerned about protests is that when they turn out the way the situation in Libya has turned out, it can end up hurting more people than helping. Isn't the fact that the country has fallen into civil war, some 140,000 people have been displaced from their homes, and some 6,000 people have been killed something to consider? Or are these facts on the ground irrelevant because we were taught in school that any armed uprising purporting to speak in the name of liberal democracy is automatically worthwile?

Liberty is the most important thing.

Is it? Where was the liberty on 9/12 when the Patriot Act was being proposed? In theory, "give me liberty or give me death" is what Westerners tend to admire, but in reality, even most Westerners will take government provided security over physical danger or death. It's a mistake to project our own values and dreams onto other people's lived reality. The lived reality in Libya right now isn't very good.

@ Antonio: the West should definitely consider intervention, as I've mentioned many times.

So you favor the Patriot Act?

I don't. I would rather die than live in a dictatorship.

[ilikeverin]

Oh, Beet.  I could never go through life as pessimistic as you are.  I don't know how you survive.  *hughughug*

The issue isn't "realpolitik." The reason why I am concerned about protests is that when they turn out the way the situation in Libya has turned out, it can end up hurting more people than helping. Isn't the fact that the country has fallen into civil war, some 140,000 people have been displaced from their homes, and some 6,000 people have been killed something to consider? Or are these facts on the ground irrelevant because we were taught in school that any armed uprising purporting to speak in the name of liberal democracy is automatically worthwile?

Liberty is the most important thing.

Is it? Where was the liberty on 9/12 when the Patriot Act was being proposed? In theory, "give me liberty or give me death" is what Westerners tend to admire, but in reality, even most Westerners will take government provided security over physical danger or death. It's a mistake to project our own values and dreams onto other people's lived reality. The lived reality in Libya right now isn't very good.

@ Antonio: the West should definitely consider intervention, as I've mentioned many times.

So you favor the Patriot Act?

I don't. I would rather die than live in a dictatorship.

DRAMAZ!