Libya: Benghazi unrest, to Civil War, to a new government and Gaddafi's death.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Apparently, Canada is sending 6 bombers in Libya. They left Canada on Thursday

But they don't do anything until they decide if they will be based in France or in Italy.
Great, if it take two days to take that decision... no wonder why people laugh of Canada.

Well, we have a reactionary idiot leader, a cabinet of clowns and incompetents, a defense minister who looks like a village idiot, a joke environmental policy made by oil lobbyists, a navy which is the butt of all jokes and an attitude both politically/culturally/economically which makes us look like idiots or jokes.

Makes sense, as they won't feel alone in an alliance comprising France and Italy.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

Not surprising that Germany, as usual, opposes military intervention.

According to a poll which was released today, 62% of the German population support the air strikes against Libya, with 65% opposing a participation of German military in the strikes.

Totally normal. It's the right thing to do...but others should do it for us.

Which is amusing is that it is almost the official position. Westerwelle announced USA can use US bases in Germany, and said that Germans could deploy more Awacs in Afghanistan in order that NATO members can use theirs in Libya. Westerwelle also said that it's not because they have something for Gaddafi that they do nothing but because they fear it would last. Well maybe there is the fact that German forces can't do much more than what they already do in Afghanistan, or they might have several reasons not to directly participate, but if so they were not forced to put the UN resolution in danger. Seems like they don't really know what they are doing nowadays.

Italy said it would directly participate, 8 jets are mobilized. And, about 11 Italian sailors of a tugboat that are 'detained by men in arms in Tripoli', the Italian Defense Minister said they were 'ready to take action'.

2 AFP reporters are missing since Friday too.

Oh and, Afghan Taliban condemn the operation.

[Associate Justice PiT]

    So the no-fly zone is much more than just a no-fly zone, eh?

Yes, the UN resolution calls for much more than a no fly zone.  Which is why it's stupid that some in the media are simply calling it a no fly zone.  It's more  like a "no fly zone" + "no attack cities zone".

     Indeed. A couple of my acquaintances have been expressing anger at attacks on Qaddafi's ground forces, since that obviously does not fall under the auspices of a no-fly zone. So it goes.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Apparently, Canada is sending 6 bombers in Libya. They left Canada on Thursday

But they don't do anything until they decide if they will be based in France or in Italy.
Great, if it take two days to take that decision... no wonder why people laugh of Canada.

Well, we have a reactionary idiot leader, a cabinet of clowns and incompetents, a defense minister who looks like a village idiot, a joke environmental policy made by oil lobbyists, a navy which is the butt of all jokes and an attitude both politically/culturally/economically which makes us look like idiots or jokes.

Makes sense, as they won't feel alone in an alliance comprising France and Italy.

In a way, Silvio Berlusconi plays the role of this war's Joseph Stalin.  He's a criminal previously allied with the one that is now fought.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm glad that for once we share the same feelings, Franzl.

Germany almost always acts like this. Must be in most Germans' blood, I imagine.

Yeah, seems that "learning lessons from history" always has to translate into silly foreign policies.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Also for the record, in Italy everyone supports the operation except the Northern League. But the problem is that the Northern League can let this government fall whenever they want, so that explains why Italy is playing the part of the buffoon in this operation.

[Lief 🗽]

One of the worst things Bush did is to discredit military intervention for humanitarian reasons. It will unfortunately take a while for the American left to support it again, even when done by a Democratic president.

[Reaganfan]

One of the worst things Bush did is to discredit military intervention for humanitarian reasons. It will unfortunately take a while for the American left to support it again, even when done by a Democratic president.

I see your point, but respectfully have to disagree with one thing, Lief. You cannot blame Bush for an anti-war sentiment. Those who rally to use military intervention or those who oppose it are probably and were probably sound in their beliefs well before President Bush came into office.

[exopolitician]

One of the worst things Bush did is to discredit military intervention for humanitarian reasons. It will unfortunately take a while for the American left to support it again, even when done by a Democratic president.

I see your point, but respectfully have to disagree with one thing, Lief. You cannot blame Bush for an anti-war sentiment. Those who rally to use military intervention or those who oppose it are probably and were probably sound in their beliefs well before President Bush came into office.

Bush cemented their distaste with his actions against Iraq, I think it's fair to assume that.

[Franzl]

Also for the record, in Italy everyone supports the operation except the Northern League. But the problem is that the Northern League can let this government fall whenever they want, so that explains why Italy is playing the part of the buffoon in this operation.

And in Germany there's no party that officially supports it...

[Middle-aged Europe]

Also for the record, in Italy everyone supports the operation except the Northern League. But the problem is that the Northern League can let this government fall whenever they want, so that explains why Italy is playing the part of the buffoon in this operation.

And in Germany there's no party that officially supports it...

The Realo half of the Greens (Künast/Özdemir) support the no-fly zone. We don't know yet what they think about "further measures" though. The Left half of the party is certainly not so happy about it. But that's the old "protect human rights at any cost" vs. "keep the peace at any cost" conflict that exists in the party since Joschka Fischer withdrew from the pacifist consensus over Bosnia in the mid-90s.

[J. J.]

I'm glad that for once we share the same feelings, Franzl.

Germany almost always acts like this. Must be in most Germans' blood, I imagine.

Blood and irony?

[J. J.]

One of the worst things Bush did is to discredit military intervention for humanitarian reasons. It will unfortunately take a while for the American left to support it again, even when done by a Democratic president.

GHW Bush, going back to Somalia.

[milhouse24]

I hope the US can take over Libya and control the oil, reducing oil prices - just like what we did in Iraq!

[opebo]

One of the worst things Bush did is to discredit military intervention for humanitarian reasons. It will unfortunately take a while for the American left to support it again, even when done by a Democratic president.

Military intervention for 'humanitarian' reasons is 1) pure propaganda, just a story to cover real reasons, and 2) in any case cultural imperialism.

[opebo]

True, but the only thing that matters is that they are doing the right thing now.

Agree 100%. Opposition to military intervention here seems to be from people that oppose military operations on principle. Which also means they don't seem to care how many people are murdered in Libya.

You are forgetting those of us who opposed the rebels and preferred Gaddafi.

[Antonio the Sixth]

One of the worst things Bush did is to discredit military intervention for humanitarian reasons. It will unfortunately take a while for the American left to support it again, even when done by a Democratic president.

Military intervention for 'humanitarian' reasons is 1) pure propaganda, just a story to cover real reasons, and 2) in any case cultural imperialism.

For whatever reason I thought you would find something more creative to say rather than such a stupid, lame, overused talking point.

[opebo]

Some rebels are already heading toward Ajdabiya.

Yes - see this is exactly what will happen, now the mob will advance again, and we'll have a long-term back and forth with far more dead than would have been the case if imperialists had not meddled.

[Bunwahaha [still dunno why, but well, so be it]]

And, about 11 Italian sailors of a tugboat that are 'detained by men in arms in Tripoli', the Italian Defense Minister said they were 'ready to take action'.

Ansa reports the boat has left Libya with all the crew on board.

[opebo]

Military intervention for 'humanitarian' reasons is 1) pure propaganda, just a story to cover real reasons, and 2) in any case cultural imperialism.

For whatever reason I thought you would find something more creative to say rather than such a stupid, lame, overused talking point.

What is stupid, lame, and overused is the absurd propaganda used to justify humanitarian intervention.  We've seen the US and other imperialist powers use this same justification over and over again for over 120 years.  I'm sick of it, and yet you all continue to lap it up.

[Insula Dei]

Military intervention for 'humanitarian' reasons is 1) pure propaganda, just a story to cover real reasons, and 2) in any case cultural imperialism.

For whatever reason I thought you would find something more creative to say rather than such a stupid, lame, overused talking point.

What is stupid, lame, and overused is the absurd propaganda used to justify humanitarian intervention.  We've seen the US and other imperialist powers use this same justification over and over again for over 120 years.  I'm sick of it, and yet you all continue to lap it up.

I don't think the 'We should stop the natives from being slaughtered' line of thinking held much sway with the American public in 1891, actually. And Opebo, please realize that you of all people should refrain from commentin on what you perceive to be a 'colonial' mindset. If anyone's living the good old colonial life, it's you.

[Silent Hunter]

Obama likes his tomahawks and drones, doesn't he?

Most US presidents do; it's an effective way of destroying targets without putting aircrew at risk,

[opebo]

I don't think the 'We should stop the natives from being slaughtered' line of thinking held much sway with the American public in 1891, actually.

What the devil?  Don't you know your history, TS?  The US took over Hawaii and then engaged in the Spanish American war based partly on this idea that somehow these victims were engaging in human rights abuses.  This has been one of the cover stories for imperialism from the beginning - 'oh the savages are just slaughtering one another and living in sin, so we must go set them to rights, make them civilized and christian'.  What rot.  Let Gaddafi run free, like a lion in the jungle with a bone in his nose.

And Opebo, please realize that you of all people should refrain from commentin on what you perceive to be a 'colonial' mindset. If anyone's living the good old colonial life, it's you.

That is one (in point of fact quite inaccurate) interpretation of what I'm doing, but even if that were what I was doing it is entirely irrelevant.   Attacking the messenger doesn't make what he's saying any less true.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I don't think the 'We should stop the natives from being slaughtered' line of thinking held much sway with the American public in 1891, actually. And Opebo, please realize that you of all people should refrain from commentin on what you perceive to be a 'colonial' mindset. If anyone's living the good old colonial life, it's you.

Actually, that line of reasoning was a contributing factor to us becoming involved in Cuba in 1898.  The reason the USS Maine was in place to be remembered was precisely because of our press sensationalizing the atrocities the Spanish were committing against the Cubans who were fighting for independence (and had been since 1895).

However, despite what opebo said, what happened in Hawaii was a pure naked power grab.

[opebo]

Actually, that line of reasoning was a contributing factor to us becoming involved in Cuba in 1898.  The reason the USS Maine was in place to be remembered was precisely because of our press sensationalizing the atrocities the Spanish were committing against the Cubans who were fighting for independence (and had been since 1895).

Thanks for confirming my point about the Spanish American War. 

This type of rational has been used by the British, Americans, French, Russians, etc. - all the imperialists.  They always claim they're doing for the victim's own good.