Libya: Benghazi unrest, to Civil War, to a new government and Gaddafi's death.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

This is by far the worst regime that has had any type of unrest in it, so I'm really hoping this one goes.

I'm not an expert on Libyan politics, but it appears the U.S. tolerates the Gaddafi regime now since he's piped down over the years.......do you think there are more stable elements who can seize power?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Al Jazeera says they're using fighter jets to bomb protesters in Tripoli. Holy shiat. This has never been used to crust anti-government protests anywhere. The guy's going down hard.

What a fycking crazy regime.

Which the U.S. has mostly left alone.......

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

In early 2004, Libya worked closely with the United States on the dismantlement and transfer of the infrastructure of its nuclear weapons program, including their missile delivery system...

The Bush Administration and Congress will continue to foster this transformation.

When dictators play ball with us, we quietly support them.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Have I missed the administration's outrage?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Are you serious? Once Gaddafi defeats the rebellion he'll knock things into shape and the oil will flow out.  If we intervene we'll have endless war, dead americans, destabiliation, bearded men, and blocked oil.  I just find it astounding that people are suddenly pro-intervention.

A lot of this is true.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Guys, I think maybe you've all been misunderstanding what Colonel Gaddafi is, from the get-go:

As the man has informed us himself in a recent interview:

He said he was not like the Tunisian or Egyptian leaders, who fell after anti-government protests. "I'm very different from them," he said. "People are on my side and give me strength."

I think Gaddafi is reminiscent of Saddam Hussein - a real dictator: one who would die rather than give up power, and whose personal relationships and kinship ties are more important than simply being a figurhead for the army (like Mubarak).  Like Saddam, only the intervention by a foreign imperialist can have much of a chance of dislogding such a leader.

Good for Gaddafi - lets acknowledge that the man never even considered running away.  If the ship went down, he fully expected to go straight to the bottom.

You forgot the part about him hating the bearded men as much as Saddam did.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

You forgot the part about him hating the bearded men as much as Saddam did.

You know, Saddam kind of had a Mel Gibson thing going on towards the end there.  He should've done the beard look rather than the mustache look from the beginning.

I think this is the style he's referring to

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I wonder if it would be an infractable offense to express approbation for Messrs Gaddafi and Hussein? 

If done like you just did it would seem unfathomable to receive any death points for it.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Egypt has already given quite a bit of weapons to the rebels and their special forces have been sighted in rebel regions including the elite Unit 777.

If Mubarek was in power maybe they'd do more......so we could do less?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

And again

Are you serious? Once Gaddafi defeats the rebellion he'll knock things into shape and the oil will flow out. If we intervene we'll have endless war, dead americans, destabiliation, bearded men, and blocked oil.  I just find it astounding that people are suddenly pro-intervention.

Your opposition to intervention is, it appears, motivated by whatever you can think of (I need my oil!) Or you're just being contrary. And it's probably the former. So it very difficult to determine when you stop being your self and start being a parody.

You should consider yourself lucky that they are only being deleted or edited. If they were reported, they would rack up infraction points.

I think a lot of reasonable people, including me when I'm being reasonable, agree with the bolded parts, Andrew.  Which is probably why nobody is reporting his posts.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

This is a passionate issue, and sans personal attacks, I hope we can speak with passion on both sides.

Passion and hyperbole are a fine line sometimes, but worth enduring on a consequential matter like this.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

We should have assassinated Gadaffi, not sent in troops. We cannot afford a third war. This could be a quagmire.

We haven't sent in troops yet, have we? 

(c) The AP

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

President Barack Obama categorically ruled out a land invasion to oust Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi Wednesday as coalition forces launched a fifth day of air strikes against government military targets in the North African nation.

And Defense Secretary Robert Gates said he can't predict how long the no-fly zone operation will last, but that the U.S. could turn over control of it as early as Saturday.

That said, I'm tired of us being the worlds cops.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Perhaps I missed it, but why are the French, of all the nations participating, so jumpin ugly about blowing Gaddafi to smithereens?

It's very indelicate, very un-French-like.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Remind me the U.S.' vital interest there again?  Oh, wait, OIL!!!!!!!

Damn that Bush Obama for getting us into a fight over oil.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Remind me the U.S.' vital interest there again?  Oh, wait, OIL!!!!!!!

Damn that Bush Obama for getting us into a fight over oil.

If our only interest was in the oil, the sensible thing would have been to support Gaddafi early so that he could continue selling it as he had been.  Whatever else this has been, it hasn't been a war about oil.  What it could easily turn into is a war for water, especially if Gaddaffi decides to pull a Samson in the temple and smash the Great Man-Made River before he dies.  Libya's population has grown so much, and the coastal aquifiers have become so salinized that if it were knocked out, there would be a serious water shortage in Libya.

Ernest, was I dreaming when the Libyans were threatening to destroy oil wells?  Keeping oil flowing out of Libya is our only "vital interest".

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

It's amazing how we've played ball with dictators for countless years in the name of oil.....and still do.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

It's amazing how we've played ball with dictators for countless years in the name of oil.....and still do.

How is that amazing?  The US installed most of the world's dictators during the cold war, and not only in the name of oil.

I was being sarcastic with the word "amazing".   

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

After listening to Obama, I wonder if he'll use the same words when the Saudis start mowing people down......oh, wait.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I vehemently oppose arming the rebels. At a certain point we need to learn our lesson and stop giving weapons to insurgents who are for the time being on our side but may not be in a decade.

Amen.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I vehemently oppose arming the rebels. At a certain point we need to learn our lesson and stop giving weapons to insurgents who are for the time being on our side but may not be in a decade.

If we don't, the rebels people who oppose Gaddaffi, who may or may not be terrorists themselves lose.  Just understand the stakes.

I understand them, as does Lief.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

The latest reports say CIA ops are in country to determine who the leaders of the rebels really are and whether or not we should be providing further lethal aid.

So even Barack Obomber isn't convinced they're on our side, S-J R.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

What's so special about Libya.

Mostly its closeness to the European mainland.

Of course, there are other differences between this and some of the other recent humanitarian catastrophes in Africa, which would argue in favor of intervention here.  One is that in Libya, the early uprising was so broad-based (with uprisings against Gaddafi not just in the east, but in about 80% of the northwest outside of Tripoli, plus some neighborhoods in Tripoli) that it looked more like a popular revolution against Gaddafi, rather than an ethnic/religious/tribal conflict.  (Of course, Gaddafi subsequently took back most of the west by force.)

And of course, the conflict in Libya is one in which it's actually possible to have some impact on things from the air.  If the conflict involves moving tanks across vast swaths of desert, then there's something you can do from the air.  If they were just fighting with small arms, knives, and machetes, then you wouldn't be able to do anything about it without ground troops.

And oil.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Nice, sbane!

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I fail to see how the past is of any relevance. There are atrocities going on now, and whoever has the power to stop them must do so.

Atrocities are going on all over the world.......and always will.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Now we've changed our tune and said he doesn't have to leave Libya...