Libya: Benghazi unrest, to Civil War, to a new government and Gaddafi's death.

[Antonio the Sixth]

And the west is watching all this without doing anything...

[Antonio the Sixth]

And the west is watching all this without doing anything...

Who are we to be world police and impose our cultural values on others? You don't want to be a colonialist imperialist, do you?

I suppose this strawman wasn't directed to me since I've never said nothing that could lead you to think I'm a dictator-loving "relativist". It would be nice if you didn't involve the entire forum in your feuds against a couple of users, though.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Just as Tunisia and Egypt influenced others, Libya may as well. If the country falls into a protracted civil war and humanitarian crisis, particularly if Qaddafi is able to re-take cities, this may have a chilling effect on protests elsewhere, particularly raising awareness of potential violent dynamics and the risks inherent in attempting a revolution. Such a chilling effect, at this point, would not be entirely unwelcome.

It's really rather difficult to come up with an adequate response to this.

Don't try to understand it, Xahar, just accept that them sandpeople don't really count when that Human Rights thing is discussed.

My point is that you guys are taking a rather simplistic view of things, but I don't expect you to understand.

LOL, it's fascinating to see how short-sighted egoism is considered as a sort of wisdom in foreign politics. Of course you didn't invent it, it's a political doctrine as old as the humanity. And despite centuries of human history showed how silly it was, I fear it will never die.

[Antonio the Sixth]

What about helping removing the dictators who are causing this bloodshed ? The only reasons why there are so much deaths is because the west is cowardly waiting to see who prevails.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I would rather die than live in a dictatorship.

I highly doubt it's true, but the Patriot Act sucks indeed.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Please finally kick out this bloody asshole.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Apparently Gaddafi offered rebels to negociate his leaving power, but the rebels turned him down.

If someone like Gaddafi tries to negociate, it means he is really in deep sh*t.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Apparently Gaddafi offered rebels to negociate his leaving power, but the rebels turned him down.

If someone like Gaddafi tries to negociate, it means he is really in deep sh*t.

It's why I think it is only a rumor.

That's still worth noting.

[Antonio the Sixth]

It's good not to have to feel ashamed of my country's foreign policy, for once.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I've just heard that the rebels have retaken Ras Lanuf. True ?

[Antonio the Sixth]

I feel ashamed of being a westerner. I really wish our political leaders were born in Libya, that's all they deserve.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm speaking collectively. France (for once) played the good role, but the only thing that matters is that, once again, the West is engaging in endless disucssions instead of taking a clear action and stop the bloodshed.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Well, now we can say honor is (partly) saved. Except for Germany which should really go f-ck itself now, what a disappointment.

Let's just hope it's not too late...

[Antonio the Sixth]

So serious things are about to begin ?

[Antonio the Sixth]

So serious things are about to begin ?

Hey, not sure if there is even someone who knows it, I said how I saw it so far in a preceding post, if Gaddafi doesn't move, it could need the summit of tomorrow to move. Boats already there would be for ensuring defensive measures in between.

Oh, I see. I've for the entire days that the operations would begin "in a few hours" but apparently they take things slowly. If this convinces Gaddafi to stop the slaughter, fine.

[Antonio the Sixth]

So they finally acted, after an entire day buying into Gaddafi's "ceasefire" and allowing him to almost entirely wipe out the rebels. I just hope it's not too late, because now Gaddafi holding on would be a catastrophe for everyone. Had they done this one week ago, it would have been a walk in the park. But anyways, if we want to win this war a terrestrial operation will be necessary. The no-fly-zone is no longer sufficient by now.

Note : just ignore Opebo.

[Antonio the Sixth]

a terrestrial operation will be necessary. The no-fly-zone is no longer sufficient by now.

There is a gap between a no-fly-zone and a terrestrial operation. That has been all the sense of the French resolution: No Ground forces. That's the sense of this operation and an important conditions for Libyans. That is not our war. We help them. All of this is why it is not Iraq or Afghanistan. And that's why France insisted in its resolution on something further than a no-fly-zone, while making clear that it wouldn't use ground forces. Now, if it comes to be necessary and only if a Libyan representation ask for it, it might have to be reexamined, but we're far from this tonight.

But do we really have an alternative ? With the rebels almost anihilated, the only thing a no-fly-zone will do is allowing the rebels to maybe keep Benghazi, and allowing Gaddafi to hold everything else, rebuild his legitimacy etc...
Which means it will be a masquerade for the West, a trauma for the Libyan people, a worrying sign for other Arab countries and a humiliation for human rights diplomacy.

[Antonio the Sixth]

a terrestrial operation will be necessary. The no-fly-zone is no longer sufficient by now.

There is a gap between a no-fly-zone and a terrestrial operation. That has been all the sense of the French resolution: No Ground forces. That's the sense of this operation and an important conditions for Libyans. That is not our war. We help them. All of this is why it is not Iraq or Afghanistan. And that's why France insisted in its resolution on something further than a no-fly-zone, while making clear that it wouldn't use ground forces. Now, if it comes to be necessary and only if a Libyan representation ask for it, it might have to be reexamined, but we're far from this tonight.

But do we really have an alternative ? With the rebels almost anihilated, the only thing a no-fly-zone will do is allowing the rebels to maybe keep Benghazi, and allowing Gaddafi to hold everything else, rebuild his legitimacy etc...
Which means it will be a masquerade for the West, a trauma for the Libyan people, a worrying sign for other Arab countries and a humiliation for human rights diplomacy.

Trying to introduce nuance is not forbidden.

Well, this military operation is allowed to go further than a no-fly-zone, France insisted on it.

It means that it could turn Gaddafi's army down, in east and west, rebels Libyans are not only in Benghazi, most of the cities in west had fallen too. You just have to turn the army down, and the people of Libya could do the rest, they already did with a full army, they might be able with an almost destroyed one, you can make a lot of military damages from planes, missiles, and boats. That's anyhow the will of Libyans. We coordinate this with them.

Well, this would be undoubtedly the best possible scenario.

[Antonio the Sixth]

As an aside, the LA Times has this picture of Hillary Clinton and Sarkozy, in which Clinton looks like she's been possessed by aliens:

Wouldn't you if your arm was being held by Sarkozy?

Was about to say that.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Russia calls on Britain, France, US to 'stop non-selective use of force' in Libya - Reuters.

Should have voted against it then.

Hipocrites...

[Antonio the Sixth]

The mix of signs is something. In LA:

LOL

[Antonio the Sixth]

So even the Arab league now is playing the little hypocritical game ? What a shame.

[Antonio the Sixth]

True, but the only thing that matters is that they are doing the right thing now.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I'm glad that for once we share the same feelings, Franzl.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Apparently, Canada is sending 6 bombers in Libya. They left Canada on Thursday

But they don't do anything until they decide if they will be based in France or in Italy.
Great, if it take two days to take that decision... no wonder why people laugh of Canada.

Well, we have a reactionary idiot leader, a cabinet of clowns and incompetents, a defense minister who looks like a village idiot, a joke environmental policy made by oil lobbyists, a navy which is the butt of all jokes and an attitude both politically/culturally/economically which makes us look like idiots or jokes.

Makes sense, as they won't feel alone in an alliance comprising France and Italy.