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Author Topic: The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown  (Read 29849 times)
opebo
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« Reply #700 on: March 10, 2011, 02:27:24 pm »
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If I am a shareholder of Microsoft and I don't like it, I can sell my securities and be done with Microsoft for good. If I am a union member and I don't like the union, I can quit the union, but they still have the right to confiscate as much money from my paycheck as they choose to.

Um, krazen, the analogy to selling your Microsoft stock is the union worker can quit his job and go work at some low-wage non-union sweatshop instead.  There is no coercion here.
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« Reply #701 on: March 10, 2011, 02:31:04 pm »
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I'll just answer 1, since I don't think Lief is completely right:

I don't think ALL of them know exactly what they're doing. The tea party types, like you said. I definitely think they're being coordinated by people who know exactly what it is they're trying to do, but they get their power by tricking people into voting against their own economic interests or by making sure people are ill-informed or constantly distracted. Fox News is the best way to do this.

The economic interests and goals these people have inherently represent a smaller number of people than the Democrats represent. The trick is making sure people don't recognize that. It's why people like the Koch brothers spend time and money manufacturing fake grassroots bus tours and corporate sponsored rallies and "movements." They have to maintain the facade that they have large numbers of people on their side. If that facade failed, it becomes clear that what they're doing isn't beneficial to the majority of people. It's essential to keep that with illusion and disinformation.

Yes, that's a good clarification. I'm sure that the vast majority of Republican voters (and even probably a majority of Republican politicians) believe that what they're doing is right, because they've been lied to and fed propaganda by very rich, very skilled, very self-interested people.
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« Reply #702 on: March 10, 2011, 02:37:10 pm »
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Yes, that's a good clarification. I'm sure that the vast majority of Republican voters (and even probably a majority of Republican politicians) believe that what they're doing is right, because they've been lied to and fed propaganda by very rich, very skilled, very self-interested people.

I don't think so.  They don't have any idea about 'right' or 'wrong', nor any understanding or reason.  They are ugly, vile, spite-filled creatures having a gut emotional reaction against people they can see/know who are very slightly better off than them.  They envy teachers for having a decent pension, because they work horrific jobs without health-care for $12/hour.

Of course one might say it is odd that they don't envy and hate the super-rich who actually enslave them, but the clincher is they will never see such a person in all their miserable lives, and they are incapable of conceiving of them.

Ha-ha, Snicker, just kidding.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 02:39:28 pm by opebo »Logged

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cinyc
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« Reply #703 on: March 10, 2011, 02:39:55 pm »
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Remember kids: Unfettered corporate and millionaire money flowing unchecked into the GOP coffers = good Cheesy. A fraction of that amount flowing from middle class union members to the Democratic Party to counteract corporation and millionaire money = undermining the political system. Angry

Here's a list of the top political donors from 1989-2010.  10 of the top 20 are unions.  But of course, their contributions are just "a fraction" and that paltry amount "flowing" from "middle class union members" - who are forced to join or pay the union regardless of whether actually want to do so.

And, of course, we all KNOW that "corporation and millionaire money" flows solely into GOP coffers.  Who cares if, as the chart shows, that's actually not true.  They fund both sides.  You have Soros.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 02:46:43 pm by cinyc »Logged
Napoleon
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« Reply #704 on: March 10, 2011, 02:46:06 pm »
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Remember kids: Unfettered corporate and millionaire money flowing unchecked into the GOP coffers = good Cheesy. A fraction of that amount flowing from middle class union members to the Democratic Party to counteract corporation and millionaire money = undermining the political system. Angry

Here's a list of the top 20 political donors from 1989-2010.  10 of them are unions.  But of course, their contributions are just "a fraction"of the amount "flowing" from "middle class union members" who are forced to join or pay the union regardless of whether actually want to do so.

And, of course, we all KNOW that "corporation and millionaire money" flows solely into GOP coffers.  Who cares if, as the chart shows, that's actually not true.  They fund both sides.  You have Soros.

I'm not too big on unions myself, they have only gotten what they brought upon themselves. Look at those donation figures! 98% to Democrats and 0% to Republicans, and then people wonder why the assault on unions is hitting hard right now. Even Goldman Sachs made a point to throw Republicans a bone or two. When you put all your cargo on one boat, you might well end up sinking with the ship.

It is funny that Enron is one of the most Republican leaning donors on the list haha.
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« Reply #705 on: March 10, 2011, 02:47:39 pm »
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Remember kids: Unfettered corporate and millionaire money flowing unchecked into the GOP coffers = good Cheesy. A fraction of that amount flowing from middle class union members to the Democratic Party to counteract corporation and millionaire money = undermining the political system. Angry

Here's a list of the top 20 political donors from 1989-2010.  10 of them are unions.  But of course, their contributions are just "a fraction"of the amount "flowing" from "middle class union members" who are forced to join or pay the union regardless of whether actually want to do so.

Does that chart capture all the money that goes into third party advocacy groups, Republican astro-turf groups with big advertising budgets, etc.? How was the ratio after Citizens United blew the doors off any restrictions on corporations financing ads to elect people who will cut checks to them in office?
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Napoleon
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« Reply #706 on: March 10, 2011, 02:48:40 pm »
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Remember kids: Unfettered corporate and millionaire money flowing unchecked into the GOP coffers = good Cheesy. A fraction of that amount flowing from middle class union members to the Democratic Party to counteract corporation and millionaire money = undermining the political system. Angry

Here's a list of the top 20 political donors from 1989-2010.  10 of them are unions.  But of course, their contributions are just "a fraction"of the amount "flowing" from "middle class union members" who are forced to join or pay the union regardless of whether actually want to do so.

Does that chart capture all the money that goes into third party advocacy groups, Republican astro-turf groups with big advertising budgets, etc.? How was the ratio after Citizens United blew the doors off any restrictions on corporations financing ads to elect people who will cut checks to them in office?

Good point, I thought it looked heavily skewed towards Democratic funding. I was wondering where all the Republican dollars were at.
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« Reply #707 on: March 10, 2011, 02:59:57 pm »
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 You have Soros.

OMG!!!
Soros and the other commie Zionists are taking over the country!!!
They will ban christianity, legalize gay marriage and pot, and take the money out of people's pockets and give them to welfare queens from the ghetto and illegal Mexicans.
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« Reply #708 on: March 10, 2011, 03:02:52 pm »
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Remember kids: Unfettered corporate and millionaire money flowing unchecked into the GOP coffers = good Cheesy. A fraction of that amount flowing from middle class union members to the Democratic Party to counteract corporation and millionaire money = undermining the political system. Angry

Here's a list of the top 20 political donors from 1989-2010.  10 of them are unions.  But of course, their contributions are just "a fraction"of the amount "flowing" from "middle class union members" who are forced to join or pay the union regardless of whether actually want to do so.

Does that chart capture all the money that goes into third party advocacy groups, Republican astro-turf groups with big advertising budgets, etc.? How was the ratio after Citizens United blew the doors off any restrictions on corporations financing ads to elect people who will cut checks to them in office?

I believe that chart shows money from PACs.  I'm not sure whether that chart shows the type of third party advocacy groups you are looking for.  But for every Republican-leaning one of those groups, there are also Democratic third party advocacy groups, Democratic astro-turf groups with big advertising budgets, etc.  Remember MoveOn.org and complaints about George $oro$ trying to buy the 2008 elections?  The system is not tilted toward either party.
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brittain33
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« Reply #709 on: March 10, 2011, 03:14:11 pm »
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I believe that chart shows money from PACs.  I'm not sure whether that chart shows the type of third party advocacy groups you are looking for.  But for every Republican-leaning one of those groups, there are also Democratic third party advocacy groups, Democratic astro-turf groups with big advertising budgets, etc.  Remember MoveOn.org and complaints about George $oro$ trying to buy the 2008 elections?  The system is not tilted toward either party.

That last line is an assertion.

I think that prior to Citizens United, you had money tilting toward power, with Republicans having a natural advantage and a cyclical advantage while they controlled Congress and in 2000, but Democrats sometimes doing better when they had the advantage (namely, the Obama campaign) and big business knew they wanted a winner, and thought McCain would suck. But with Citizens United and big business deciding to go thermonuclear on Obama, the taps were opened. I think it is far too soon to say that the effects of Citizens United is to preserve a level playing field when industries have access to more money than anyone else and have a vested interest in "encouraging" elected officials to cut taxes on their highest managers, to relax regulations for the environment and safety, etc.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 03:16:05 pm by brittain33 »Logged
wormyguy
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« Reply #710 on: March 10, 2011, 03:16:31 pm »
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All 20 of the 20 largest industries donated more to Democrats in 2010 than Republicans.
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brittain33
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« Reply #711 on: March 10, 2011, 03:20:09 pm »
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All 20 of the 20 largest industries donated more to Democrats in 2010 than Republicans.

Give us a link, so we can tear apart whatever bogus assumptions underlie that argument.

I'm going to guess that oil and natural gas now aren't among the 20 largest industries in America, despite Exxon breaking profit records for any corporation, past or present—or that they donated to Dems in 2010?
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« Reply #712 on: March 10, 2011, 04:15:06 pm »
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All 20 of the 20 largest industries donated more to Democrats in 2010 than Republicans.

If that is true, which it probably isn't and was made up on the spot, it doesn't mean much of anything since the Republicans do bigger and more favors for corporations than Democrats do. That aside, it's very hard to believe that industry would have given more to Democrats in 2010 of all years.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #713 on: March 10, 2011, 05:33:58 pm »
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It's really funny that the libertarians here all happen to be Republican hacks and oblivious to facts. It's as if eight years of George W. Bush wasn't enough government expansion for these kids.
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I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
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cinyc
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« Reply #714 on: March 10, 2011, 05:38:24 pm »
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All 20 of the 20 largest industries donated more to Democrats in 2010 than Republicans.

Give us a link, so we can tear apart whatever bogus assumptions underlie that argument.

I'm going to guess that oil and natural gas now aren't among the 20 largest industries in America, despite Exxon breaking profit records for any corporation, past or present—or that they donated to Dems in 2010?

Employees in 18 of the 20 industries that gave the most money to political candidates in 2010 contributed more to Democrats than Republicans.  The only exceptions were commercial banks (barely) and oil and gas (by a wider margin).  

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/mems.php
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Bacon King
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« Reply #715 on: March 10, 2011, 06:41:09 pm »
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All 20 of the 20 largest industries donated more to Democrats in 2010 than Republicans.

Give us a link, so we can tear apart whatever bogus assumptions underlie that argument.

I'm going to guess that oil and natural gas now aren't among the 20 largest industries in America, despite Exxon breaking profit records for any corporation, past or present—or that they donated to Dems in 2010?

Employees in 18 of the 20 industries that gave the most money to political candidates in 2010 contributed more to Democrats than Republicans.  The only exceptions were commercial banks (barely) and oil and gas (by a wider margin). 

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/mems.php

I didn't know "Retired", "Leadership PACs", "Democratic/Liberal", or "Public Sector Unions" were considered industries. Also, some of these are not industries themselves but individuals that happen to be in the industry (and there's going to be a big difference between, say for example, how Ford employees vote and who their company supports).

Even then, a cursory glance shows that a lot of the partisan breakdowns are skewed because many companies would be heavily Republican if you discount the huge donations they gave to Reid, Schumer, and the Democratic chairman of the committee that regulates whatever industry they're in.
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cinyc
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« Reply #716 on: March 10, 2011, 06:48:42 pm »
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All 20 of the 20 largest industries donated more to Democrats in 2010 than Republicans.

Give us a link, so we can tear apart whatever bogus assumptions underlie that argument.

I'm going to guess that oil and natural gas now aren't among the 20 largest industries in America, despite Exxon breaking profit records for any corporation, past or present—or that they donated to Dems in 2010?

Employees in 18 of the 20 industries that gave the most money to political candidates in 2010 contributed more to Democrats than Republicans.  The only exceptions were commercial banks (barely) and oil and gas (by a wider margin). 

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/mems.php

I didn't know "Retired", "Leadership PACs", "Democratic/Liberal", or "Public Sector Unions" were considered industries. Also, some of these are not industries themselves but individuals that happen to be in the industry (and there's going to be a big difference between, say for example, how Ford employees vote and who their company supports).

Even then, a cursory glance shows that a lot of the partisan breakdowns are skewed because many companies would be heavily Republican if you discount the huge donations they gave to Reid, Schumer, and the Democratic chairman of the committee that regulates whatever industry they're in.

Even if you remove "Retired", "Leadership PACs" and "Democratic/Liberal", employees in 18 of the 20 top industries still contributed more to Democrats than Republicans.  Public Sector Unions are an industry - they represent government workers.

People contribute to those who run subject committees?  Money goes to those in power, regardless of which party is in power?  Who knew!  But I've been told by some with red avatars that evil big business and millionaires ONLY give to Republicans...
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« Reply #717 on: March 10, 2011, 07:13:31 pm »
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All 20 of the 20 largest industries donated more to Democrats in 2010 than Republicans.

Give us a link, so we can tear apart whatever bogus assumptions underlie that argument.

I'm going to guess that oil and natural gas now aren't among the 20 largest industries in America, despite Exxon breaking profit records for any corporation, past or present—or that they donated to Dems in 2010?

Employees in 18 of the 20 industries that gave the most money to political candidates in 2010 contributed more to Democrats than Republicans.  The only exceptions were commercial banks (barely) and oil and gas (by a wider margin). 

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/mems.php

I didn't know "Retired", "Leadership PACs", "Democratic/Liberal", or "Public Sector Unions" were considered industries. Also, some of these are not industries themselves but individuals that happen to be in the industry (and there's going to be a big difference between, say for example, how Ford employees vote and who their company supports).

Even then, a cursory glance shows that a lot of the partisan breakdowns are skewed because many companies would be heavily Republican if you discount the huge donations they gave to Reid, Schumer, and the Democratic chairman of the committee that regulates whatever industry they're in.

Even if you remove "Retired", "Leadership PACs" and "Democratic/Liberal", employees in 18 of the 20 top industries still contributed more to Democrats than Republicans.  Public Sector Unions are an industry - they represent government workers.

People contribute to those who run subject committees?  Money goes to those in power, regardless of which party is in power?  Who knew!  But I've been told by some with red avatars that evil big business and millionaires ONLY give to Republicans...

All this shows is that people who work support Democrats.. while those who don't and business interests (like CEOs, lobbyists, and since 2010, the companies themselves) donate to Republicans.
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brittain33
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« Reply #718 on: March 10, 2011, 07:24:21 pm »
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And, again, no accounting of the money plowed into "Citizens for Health Care Choice", "Citizens Against Food Taxes," "Taxpayers for Coal Warmth," "Bald Eagles For A Balanced Environmental Policy," "Patriots for Job Growth" etc. which pound Democrats with millions of dollars in ads funded by industries who oppose Democratic policies.
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« Reply #719 on: March 10, 2011, 07:25:01 pm »
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All this shows is that people who work support Democrats.. while those who don't and business interests (like CEOs, lobbyists, and since 2010, the companies themselves) donate to Republicans.

Nice spin.  Do you have any actual evidence of that or are you repeating yet another MSNBC or Talking Points Memo talking point?

The fact at the link I provided is that lobbyists themselves funneled about 69% of their contributions to DEMOCRATS in 2010.  And lobbying groups gave DEMOCRATS double what they gave to Republicans in 2009, the last year for which the Center for Responsive Politics has data.  

Politicians are like whores.  The most corporate money usually goes to the most attractive ones - those closest to the levers of power.  Always has.  Always will.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #720 on: March 10, 2011, 07:25:09 pm »
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The biggest problem here is post-Citizens United, how much more money has flooded in from billionaires, outside groups, and corporations themselves, that didn't or couldn't before. Look at outside groups on opensecrets. Midterms used to be pretty low for them.

In 2002, it was extremely low in between the two presidential election years. In 2006, outside groups spend nearly $69,000,000. In 2008, a big year and a presidential year, outside groups spent $301,000,000. That was alot, but it was a presidential year, and a major election in it's own right.

Then 2010. Midterm election year, you expect it to go back down, right? Wrong. Post-Citizens United, outside groups spent roughly $298,500,000. After the floodgates opened, big money from outside groups poured into elections like never before, in elections that traditionally get much lower attention than presidential elections.

And of the ballooning outside group spending, 7 out of 10 of the top spending outside groups were right-wing. The only three that weren't, were unions. Including the teacher's union and the public employees union founded in Wisconsin.

People in industries donate to candidates. Shocker. The real big deal here is where the new huge tidal waves of cash are coming in, and that's from outside groups, corporations, and billionaires now completely unrestrained because of the Supreme Court. And the only people still holding on in the outside group category are the unions. A few corporations and a handful of billionaires vs. millions of working people banding together in their defense. I think I, at least, know the nobler side of that fight.
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« Reply #721 on: March 10, 2011, 07:27:27 pm »
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I'm perfectly willing to discuss (at least partial) public financing of campaigns in connection with private spending limits.

Actually seems like a reasonable thing. These political issues shouldn't be about politics.
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« Reply #722 on: March 10, 2011, 07:29:55 pm »
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A few corporations and a handful of billionaires vs. millions of working people banding together in their defense. I think I, at least, know the nobler side of that fight.

Which you are, quite literally, watching from the sidelines.
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cinyc
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« Reply #723 on: March 10, 2011, 07:31:13 pm »
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And, again, no accounting of the money plowed into "Citizens for Health Care Choice", "Citizens Against Food Taxes," "Taxpayers for Coal Warmth," "Bald Eagles For A Balanced Environmental Policy," "Patriots for Job Growth" etc. which pound Democrats with millions of dollars in ads funded by industries who oppose Democratic policies.

Or the money of MoveOn.org or EMILY's List or America Votes, or the various unions, etc. which pound Republican with millions of dollars in ads funded by industries who oppose Republicans policies.

But wait...  There's a list of who the 527s supported, too.  Care to guess who had more support from 527s the past four cycles?  Hint.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #724 on: March 10, 2011, 07:33:15 pm »
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A few corporations and a handful of billionaires vs. millions of working people banding together in their defense. I think I, at least, know the nobler side of that fight.

Which you are, quite literally, watching from the sidelines.

Another post, another time you've completely avoided seriously discussing the issue at hand.
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