The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[Marokai Backbeat]

Alot of union bashing from the usual suspects, here. Not surprising and still disgusting. The amount of people who want to effectively repeal the entire 20th century is blowing me away.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I hope that nobody will faint with surprise.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php

Wisconsin's new Republican governor has framed his assault on public worker's collective bargaining rights as a needed measure of fiscal austerity during tough times.

The reality is radically different. Unlike true austerity measures -- service rollbacks, furloughs, and other temporary measures that cause pain but save money -- rolling back worker's bargaining rights by itself saves almost nothing on its own. But Walker's doing it anyhow, to knock down a barrier and allow him to cut state employee benefits immediately.

Furthermore, this broadside comes less than a month after the state's fiscal bureau -- the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office -- concluded that Wisconsin isn't even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus. In fact, they say that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office.

"Walker was not forced into a budget repair bill by circumstances beyond he control," says Jack Norman, research director at the Institute for Wisconsin Future -- a public interest think tank. "He wanted a budget repair bill and forced it by pushing through tax cuts... so he could rush through these other changes."

This is just sickening. This entirely issue honestly just leaves me speechless. How people actually defend this behavior is stunning. (Though maybe, I guess, I shouldn't be as surprised as I am.)

[Marokai Backbeat]

What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out.

No, you've got that backwards - the rich exact their privileges from a gencide upon the poor.  Even if one prefers to be an exploiter (who wouldn't?), the whole system rests upon the back of the tortured worker, so he is absolutely necessary, and hence 'valuable'.  Happily 'poor people spring up out of the ground like mushrooms', as the old Thai saying goes, and so there are always more to use.  But there's the rub - they are useful, something a rich person by definition cannot be.

Your over-the-top socialist propaganda makes no sense.  There is no genocide on the poor.  That is, unless in socialist doublespeak, genocide means ever-increasing life expectancy and living standards.

And how can you see no difference between a government that takes money from its citizens at gunpoint and a the private sector, which only takes money from those willing to spend it?

The day of reckoning has arrived.  Those who pay the bloated salaries and pensions of public sector employees are sick and tired of it.  That's what Wisconsin voters said in 2010.  The governor is doing the work of the people who voted for him.

Oh give it a break. As Px said, there's no budget issue in Wisconsin except of the Governor's own creation by deliberately causing a budget shortfall. I seriously doubt the voters went to the voting booth with public employee salaries on their minds. Give the dishonesty a rest.

[Marokai Backbeat]

This video pretty much describes how I feel without me feeling the need to go on a long tangent about it myself.

This has nothing to do with the budget, this has nothing to do with anything. This is about politics. It is about crippling the Democratic Party in Wisconsin and beyond. This is about winning elections. Nothing less.

px,

cinyc is citing Politifact (Pulitzer prize, called Michelle Bachmann "beyond preposterous", acknowledged that the stimulus created 1 million jobs, etc. etc. etc).

You're citing TPM, an obviously unhinged Madison newspaper editorial, and a legislative document with no context which you are almost surely misinterpreting. Your story-- that a $1.5 billion deficit as of late 2010 was transformed into a $100 million surplus in early 2011, which was transformed back into a $2-3 billion deficit by $140 million in budget changes by the Walker administration is makes no sense on face. If the roles were reversed, all of us would be saying that it's another example of how the tea party, the birthers, etc. have driven the GOP off the rails. Let's not do the same thing.

I haven't taken the time to look up anything about the budget situation in Wisconsin, so I don't pretend to know everything about it. (Because, frankly, this issue has nothing to do with the budget. The budget is the excuse.)

If this was about the deficit in Wisconsin, why pass nearly 200 million dollars in tax cuts as one of your first actions in a state with a supposedly critical budget situation? If unions must sacrifice, why not even try to negotiate with them? Why go whole hog and effectively remove the ability for these unions to negotiate and collectively bargain at all? If you're going to take this drastic action, why exempt the three unions that, conveniently, supported your election bid, while taking the knife to everyone else?

This has nothing to do with the budget. This isn't even about public employee unions trimming up their salaries at all. Negotiating over cuts is one thing, and maybe you could even provide a winning argument that that is what is needed, but Walker didn't negotiate, he never wanted to negotiate, he proposed something and wanted it passed immediately that went straight for the jugular of the unions in Wisconsin. (Which, in and of itself, actually has nothing to do with the deficit anyway.)

This is about politics. It's about winning elections. What we are witnessing here is the first major power grab against unions in the new modern American economy. The powers that be have taken off their gloves. (God, I hate sounding like this, but it's the truth.) They're not hiding anymore, they're not pretending anymore. They have the numbers right now and while they've got them, they're going wild. If it isn't stopped here, the consequences will be dire, not just politically, but economically and socially. All because of Wisconsin.

[Marokai Backbeat]

This is great:

Actually really awesome and touching, in a way. Great message.

[Marokai Backbeat]

In wake of agreeing to the concessions, wouldn't that be unnecessary?

Busting unions and undermining Democratic electoral strength was the point from the very beginning. In Walker's mind, it's very necessary.

[Marokai Backbeat]

And, of course, Ohio is next.

[Marokai Backbeat]

The hammer drops.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703529004576160742045911986.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Ohio joins the party and prepares to disband public sector unions. And, thankfully, they only have majority requirements for quorum.

I don't often get a little frightened and oddly hyperbolic and conspiratorial, but the amount of cheerleading you and others in this thread are doing is downright creepy considering the obvious motivations behind these moves. This is about crippling the Democratic Party electorally, this is about crippling the organizational capabilities that left-wing grassroots depends upon, this is about eliminating the only, the only, competition corporate money has in American politics.

This is literally about destroying elements of our democracy for partisan purposes. And people like you scare the sh**t out of me when I think about what a future America could look like after this.

[Marokai Backbeat]

And this is why America is screwed people. We can't even discuss the damn issue without immature responses and over hyper-sensitivity based gotcha moments. Part of the problem is the arrogance of some many on this damn forum. And I even mentioned this in the original damn posts. Grow up people, and get this thread back on topic.

Nah, I just think you're an idiot for thinking that the amount of racial tension there is, is somehow abnormal. When it comes to anti-immigrant tension, in the modern world this is completely normal. Nearly every western country on Earth besides Canada has or has had a culture of immigrant scapegoating and inflamed tension because of legal and illegal immigration.

You're absolutely right on your broader point, but Canada has had their fair share of racial tensions too. Quebec, for instance, is given special self governing powers in immigration to Quebec because of a history of racial tensions in the province and a hostility to outsiders by the french population. Not to mention the long history of conflict between the french and english population in itself.

Of course, they always dealt with these things and have crafted a relatively peaceful society given a very multicultural country, but I just thought it should be noted.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up.

The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't.

One already has, and we just need two more. There have to be at least two recently elected from marginal districts.

In Ohio a few Republican Senators buckled as well with regards to Kasich's nonsense.

Six, in fact. Unfortunately, it still passed 17-16, but there are hopes of repealing the law via referendum.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Wow, when even Rasmussen is showing numbers like that, you know the jig is up.

The Pubbies cannot afford to back down, and won't.

One already has, and we just need two more. There have to be at least two recently elected from marginal districts.

In Ohio a few Republican Senators buckled as well with regards to Kasich's nonsense.

Six, in fact. Unfortunately, it still passed 17-16, but there are hopes of repealing the law via referendum.

I guess the shoe will be on the other foot in 2012. Like the gay marriage amendment increased turnout in 2004, a possible repeal of the union busting law can bring to the polls union workers and ultimately help Obama carry the state.

Even if it doesn't (though I think you are correct on that), there are plenty of Republicans in this state and across the country that, given the option to defend union rights separately, would absolutely do so. Even my conservative grandparents who have never voted Democratic in their entire lives support the rights of unions. I hate referenda on principle, but I have faith this state, if given the option, would vote in one to protect them.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Where is Cinyc to argue how Walker and the Republicans are defying the will of the people? (Or does that only apply when Democrats defy the "will of the people"?)

[Marokai Backbeat]

Using public policy for political purposes. Republicans do it better than anyone.

At least the Democrats put up a good fight.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Using public policy for political purposes. Republicans do it better than anyone.

At least the Democrats put up a good fight.

Nope. Not quite as well as the Democrats did to create public sector unions in Ohio in 1983.

Yeah, because it couldn't possibly have been about a longstanding Democratic belief that unionization improves the lives of regular people. Compare to this incident, which has absolutely positively nothing to do with the budget, just a simple stripping of rights and an attempt to weaken political opponents. Exempting unions that supported Walker? And the threats to try and tighten voter registration rules while the Democrats were gone? That helps the budget in what way, exactly?

You are a frightening authoritarian cheerleading poster that engages in all sorts of false equivalencies, selective reading, and twisting of words. You'll get along with the others just fine.

[Marokai Backbeat]

At the end of the day, this was put in place so that LOCAL and COUNTY governments can more easily deal with the massive state aid cuts that are going to be passed along with the budget.  So, yes, it is about the budget, but not necessarily the state budget except to the extent it would allow the state government to more easily get concessions from its own workers.

You lost the right to whine about union concessions when they offered to give up any of the cuts demanded of them as long as they could keep their ability to bargain collectively. Abolishing collective bargaining is a rights issue, not a budget issue. The fact that they had to split it apart from the budget bill just to pass it is a tacit admission of exactly that.

[Marokai Backbeat]

That belief is borne out of nothing more than AFL-CIO support and money for Ohio Democrats in 1982, and of course in 1986.

Thanks for showing the truth, though. Democrats are fine with party line ramming and political power grabs when they do it. Talk about crocodile tears!

The Democratic mayor of New York did the same thing in 1958 not because the city needed labor unions, but because he wanted to.

Dude, I don't give a flying f**k about who introduced unions to where at what point in time. This discussion is about the budget, what Republicans are doing here in Wisconsin, and everywhere else. Even if I was to entertain your retarded "the other side does it too" excuse, that doesn't excuse a goddamn thing unless you have the mind of a toddler.

Rick Scott in Florida wants to cut 1.75 billion from the state's schools and give 1.6 billion away in tax breaks for business.

The Ohio budget repair bill includes anti-gay marriage language and giving politicians, not judges or any sort of neutral arbiter, power to resolve labor disputes. (And guts private and public union rights.)

Snyder in Michigan is supporting a budget bill that gives him power to unilaterally declare a state in "fiscal crisis" and place a new overseer of those towns with power to dismiss the elected officials of that town and potentially place a corporation in charge of it. He's also supporting a tax hike on poor people to give it away in tax breaks.

Republicans in Wisconsin threatened to tighten voter registration laws to intimidate the Democrats.

There's alot of things going on right now, but it has nothing to do with budget issues. There's something much more widespread and insidious going on here, and the people shelling out millions in fake grassroots movements depend on people like you to let them have their way.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Walker was a county exec.  He knows what happens when the state cuts aid while the county's hands are tied - county taxes go up.  This bill is an attempt to avoid that situation.

You really want to bring up Walker's atrocious record as county exec?

[Marokai Backbeat]

Guys, watch the live stream I just posted. It's crazy.

Watching it since you posted it. Crazy indeed.

[Marokai Backbeat]

This video is Absolutely Crazy

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/41998976#41998976

Speechless.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I don't even care if it was about the budget, good thing it passed anyways. Good buy to public union power in Wisconsin!

Oh, there was "buy"ing, alright. Republicans, in cooperation with powerful business interests have spent the last 30 years destroying private sector unions. Now it's time to destroy public sector unions. The last vestige of powerful organized power against corporate interests, politically.

Enjoy your billionaire masters. Maybe you'll get to be one of the lucky ones.

[Marokai Backbeat]

How is this so difficult to understand?

A little difficult for me to take your word on it being a fair and genuine effort to solve budget issues considering the way they keep talking about it.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I'll just answer 1, since I don't think Lief is completely right:

I don't think ALL of them know exactly what they're doing. The tea party types, like you said. I definitely think they're being coordinated by people who know exactly what it is they're trying to do, but they get their power by tricking people into voting against their own economic interests or by making sure people are ill-informed or constantly distracted. Fox News is the best way to do this.

The economic interests and goals these people have inherently represent a smaller number of people than the Democrats represent. The trick is making sure people don't recognize that. It's why people like the Koch brothers spend time and money manufacturing fake grassroots bus tours and corporate sponsored rallies and "movements." They have to maintain the facade that they have large numbers of people on their side. If that facade failed, it becomes clear that what they're doing isn't beneficial to the majority of people. It's essential to keep that with illusion and disinformation.

[Marokai Backbeat]

The biggest problem here is post-Citizens United, how much more money has flooded in from billionaires, outside groups, and corporations themselves, that didn't or couldn't before. Look at outside groups on opensecrets. Midterms used to be pretty low for them.

In 2002, it was extremely low in between the two presidential election years. In 2006, outside groups spend nearly $69,000,000. In 2008, a big year and a presidential year, outside groups spent $301,000,000. That was alot, but it was a presidential year, and a major election in it's own right.

Then 2010. Midterm election year, you expect it to go back down, right? Wrong. Post-Citizens United, outside groups spent roughly $298,500,000. After the floodgates opened, big money from outside groups poured into elections like never before, in elections that traditionally get much lower attention than presidential elections.

And of the ballooning outside group spending, 7 out of 10 of the top spending outside groups were right-wing. The only three that weren't, were unions. Including the teacher's union and the public employees union founded in Wisconsin.

People in industries donate to candidates. Shocker. The real big deal here is where the new huge tidal waves of cash are coming in, and that's from outside groups, corporations, and billionaires now completely unrestrained because of the Supreme Court. And the only people still holding on in the outside group category are the unions. A few corporations and a handful of billionaires vs. millions of working people banding together in their defense. I think I, at least, know the nobler side of that fight.

[Marokai Backbeat]

A few corporations and a handful of billionaires vs. millions of working people banding together in their defense. I think I, at least, know the nobler side of that fight.

Which you are, quite literally, watching from the sidelines.

Another post, another time you've completely avoided seriously discussing the issue at hand.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Got my layoff notice today.