The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[Brittain33]

It is tyranny if the legislature does something the protesters disagree with. Tea Party 2011!

[Brittain33]

It is tyranny if the legislature does something the protesters disagree with. Tea Party 2011!

If that's what they choose to believe they are more than welcome to.

But I don't think the average American cares much for namecalling or lame duck shenanighans.

How arrogant to ignore the voice of the people. Maybe they need tri-cornered hats to get your attention.

[Brittain33]

The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities.

Truthfully, I always wondered why so called 'progessives' believed in the transferrence of wealth from low income private sector consumers to upper income state pensioners.

We call it "freedom." Maybe you've heard of it. It's what our Founders fought for.

[Brittain33]

If only these protesters had dressed up in 18th century garb and held signs with horrible spelling about how Obama is simultaneously a Muslim, Socialist and Nazi. Then they would be true American patriots.

Carly Melin's win is a shot across the bow against our would-be tyrants. The voters are coming for you, better backtrack on everything you were elected to do.

[Brittain33]

You know, I don't disagree with the general idea that public employee unions have to deal with budget issues... but Walker's bill goes well beyond that to try to absolutely pulverize the unions to bits. I don't blame them for fighting back. We aren't talking about a small change in formulae, we're talking about dismantling the unions. He overreached.

[Brittain33]

So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS?  You make more than them and are not fired.

Mostly because there's no money to pay them.

If that was the case than why not go after the Police and Firefighters Unions??  Why exempt them?

Oh, go after them first.

They supported Walker's campaign, so that's not going to happen.

[Brittain33]

From the AP (Happy, Lunar?  )

Police officers were searching for Democratic state lawmakers who had not shown up for a vote on the sweeping legislation. The state Senate Democrats did not show up when they were ordered to attend a midday vote on the legislation. Though Republicans hold a 19-14 majority, they need at least one Democrat present to vote.

CNN reiterated radio reports that indicated Democratic state legislators had boarded a bus and left town. Mike Browne, communications director for Wisconsin Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller, told the network he had not been in contact with any Democratic legislators on Thursday. Browne said he was at the state Capitol and that he had seen no Democrats show up

Ah, this is Texas and DeLay's Pubbie Sixpack redistricting plan all over again. The Dems all went to Santa Fe in that little drama. At least they had good taste in towns. And in the end, the Dems were f'ed, so it all had a happy ending.

The Texas Dems still had one yellow dog from a Republican district who fouled it up for them... I wonder if the Wisconsin caucus has anyone similar or if it's a liberal rump that survived last year's slaughter.

[Brittain33]

Teachers are overpaid all of sudden? What a load! My mom retired in 2005 after 30 years and made about 35k/year. If you want to cherry pick obscene salaries, you probably want to start with hedge fund managers.

Taxpayers don't pay those.

We do allow them to pay income taxes at a 15% rate instead of standard brackets because of a shameful loophole that they've lobbied to keep open. Check it out.

[Brittain33]

Or maybe Walker just hates public employee unions in the abstract,

They work to elect members of the opposing party, and are effective at it. (maybe not in 2010.)

[Brittain33]

Did they not remember what happened to the Texas Dems who pulled the same stunt 8 years ago? Got the boot in the next election.

Which ones?

[Brittain33]

The closed schools are in MADISON. People in Madison aren't going to vote Republican over that.

The people of Madison now have to take off from work to babysit their kids. Have fun.

Around this time two years ago I was cackling over the prospect of Marco Rubio splitting the Republican party and prevent Crist from winning an election. Have fun.

[Brittain33]

Around this time two years ago I was cackling over the prospect of Marco Rubio splitting the Republican party and prevent Crist from winning an election. Have fun.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Your pile of assumptions about how this plays out.

[Brittain33]

I bet you, just bet you, that the deficit commission, that outfit Obama is keeping his distance from that was his creation, and on which  all of his appointees signed off the plan that got a healthy majority of both parties on the commission, zeroed that one out. Wanna bet? Let's get on with it!

Could you provide a link showing that Bowles' and Simpson's mark-up got a healthy majority of both parties and all of Obama's appointees--and explain why we shouldn't take seriously that they were supposed to get 14 out of 18 signatories and couldn't do that? Why put that requirement in if it's not operative?

Did Boehner come out and promise to bring the commission's plan to a vote in the House? If not, do you think Obama coming forward would create a dynamic where he'd become more likely to do so?

You want Obama to tell America to eat its broccoli and skip the dessert. I get that. I wanted Bush to be honest about things to his base, too, even while he was flying around the country campaigning on a "have your cake and eat it too" (tax cuts are good for the country and pay for themselves) platform and attacking people who said "you can't do that" as trying to hurt people. You can rate Obama a D, an F, a N/A, etc. because he's not singlehandedly governing as a fiscal conservative. I'll rate Congressional Republicans the same for proving to him last December with their extortion of a massive tax cut that they don't care about the deficit, either. Obama can't lead people who will march in the opposite direction from what he says. Like the Republicans, he has primary voters and party supporters he has to respond to. Why should the Democratic primary voters who are poorer and less secure than the average American be expected to be more responsible adherents of Republican ideology than the millions of Medicare-grubbing Tea Party marchers who we're supposed to coddle as they play the "tax the man behind that tree" game?

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To the best of my knowledge, it's the latter. They structured their compensation as capital gains rather than income because they can, and because they can bribe enough Congress members to keep the game going, plus Wall Street has well-placed Democrats in the Senate from the New York metro area who accept that the business of America is CNBC.

[Brittain33]

Your pile of assumptions about how this plays out.

It's not an assumption. That's a statement of the last 3 days. Madison schools have been closed all week.

You're being disingenuous. You're talking about how Wisconsin's going to swing even more R than the historic victories in 2010 based on Dems fighting back for what they believe in 21 months before the next elections.

[Brittain33]

cinyc, note that Walker goes beyond givebacks to help close a budget deficit into bona fide union-busting tactics. You and many others may feel that was an appropriate course of action for the greater good, but it also gives unions greater incentive to declare WW3 in response.

[Brittain33]

Seven Green Bay Packers come down on the side of the unions.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wi_house_dems_warn_gov_walker_not_to_cross_packers.php

[Brittain33]

Nice to see the DNC stay involed

This is the first battle of the 2012 election.

[Brittain33]

Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

Plus having their union busted and collective bargaining rights taken away, while nothing happens to police and fire. I have less of an issue with them pushing cost cuts than with the existential battle picked by Walker--which, again, I'm not going to say he was wrong as a Republican to fight on.

[Brittain33]

None of this is any different from what Walker and the Republicans already had planned for this session, and could pass without the Democrats' votes.

The real action is whether any of the moderate Republican senators are wavering on his union busting bill. At least one is.

Here it comes. Fight back!

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49919_Page3.html


There had been some fear from Democrats earlier Monday that Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald might try to separate the collective bargaining provisions from the overall budget bill and hold a vote on the legislation’s most controversial piece, because it technically does not involve the budget and would not require a quorum of 20 members. But, for now, Fitzgerald does not intend to do so, according to local reports. A spokesman for Fitzgerald did not immediately respond to a request for comment.


Fitzgerald said Republicans may try to force the Democrats to return this week by calling a bill to the floor that would require voters to show identification at polling places - a bill Democrats oppose because they worry it will disenfranchise some voters. And Walker tried to add fear in his press conference Monday night by saying that if the legislature does not act on his budget soon, he will have to lay off 1,500 state workers because of the savings that will be lost.



Time to move on these bills. They will pass unanimously.

[Brittain33]

Walker is not going to back down, so my only question is what happens if the Dems don't come back to Madison? I really don't know what the rules are about that such as if they'd lose their jobs after a certain amount of time or more likely they get to be paid for doing nothing.

Walker isn't going to back down, but 3 Republican senators might.

We've seen what happens when the minority party obstructs and forces the majority to take tough decisions that make a subset of voters very angry and unhappy... the electorate goes for balance. Some of those Republican senators want to stay in office past next year and don't share Walker's desire for a total clash of civilizations with a good chunk of their constituents.

Check out this chart:

http://www.swingstateproject.com/diary/8405/wisconsin-presidential-results-by-state-senate-district

Three Republican senators represent districts won by John Kerry, with a fourth going 49%-50%. The number of Republican senators in districts not won by Obama is, um, 5 out of 19. These senators may recognize that while 2008 isn't coming back, neither is 2010, and gerrymandering is only going to do so much to save them from the consequences of Walker's overreach. How many of them want to be the Dina Titus, John Salazar, or Dan Maffei to Walker's Obama?

[Brittain33]

Two polls—one commissioned by the AFL-CIO with a reputable pollster, another by WeAskAmerica—show Walker upside down on this issue. I encourage people to look at the polls rather than just the sponsorship, although of course sponsorship can't be ignored.

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2011/02/new_poll_of_wisconsin.php?ref=fpblg

I think there's a Rasmussen poll on the other side which Nate Silver picked apart for leading questions before asking people's approval.
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/rasmussen-poll-on-wisconsin-dispute-may-be-biased/

[Brittain33]

Walker is not going to back down, so my only question is what happens if the Dems don't come back to Madison? I really don't know what the rules are about that such as if they'd lose their jobs after a certain amount of time or more likely they get to be paid for doing nothing.

One story suggested the GOP is thinking of enacting into law one bill after another that the Dems hate for which you don't need a quorum because it does not involve financial issues apparently. First up is requiring that you show ID to vote. The thought is that this series of tactical nuclear strikes will induce to Dems to fold in order to stop the bleeding.

Won't those bills pass anyway when the Dems return? Republicans had already announced that they would introduce and pass those bills, and if they need only a simple majority, they'll have it with or without a fiscal bill quorum. I don't see how this constitutes a trump card.

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This sounds like Democrats talking about whipping votes for the health care bill. They got their wish. Is it hard to imagine that many state senators in Wisconsin support a compromise that cuts costs without going to the full monty on union-busting? Walker is Governor, not Prime Minister. He is elected statewide and has the luxury of building a 50+1% coalition that senators from districts with less anti-union voters don't have. I think that what Walker, and what partisans in other parts of the country want, should not be presumed to be what the senate Republican caucus wants, and certainly not what the voters of Wisconsin want. The governor can draw a line in the sand but the senators are not obligated to deliver 100% when they find they are personally more than happy with 70%.

[Brittain33]

You don't think Pubbie turncoats will be primaried?  

In some of these districts? No, I don't. Sam has often mentioned that the Tea Party is a suburban phenomenon. The suburban senators aren't the ones at risk here. Many senators were elected just because the electorate was old and anti-PPACA last year, not because they all read Atlas Shrugged in October. I don't think that even Republican primary voters in many parts of Wisconsin are as hard-line as you and Walker are on this issue, although I'm only guessing, especially when the Republicans have already secured massive givebacks of money from the unions.

[Brittain33]

You don't think Pubbie turncoats will be primaried? 

In some of these districts? No, I don't. Sam has often mentioned that the Tea Party is a suburban phenomenon. The suburban senators aren't the ones at risk here. I don't think that even Republican primary voters in many parts of Wisconsin are as hard-line as you and Walker are on this issue, although I'm only guessing, especially when the Republicans have already secured massive givebacks of money from the unions.

I certainly don't claim to be an expert on the Pubbie mindset in small town and rural Wisconsin. Krazen77 may have a thought or two about that.

Krazen lives in NJ, I think?

[Brittain33]

NJ is also an example of the Baumol effect:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol%27s_cost_disease

Here's a good summary of the impact of the trap:

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2011/02/schools-and-the-baumol-effect/

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The problem is that as our society gets wealthier as a result of technological change and improvements in productivity, labor-intensive occupations that do not have opportunities for new efficiencies will lose out relative to others unless pay is raised or society decides to employ fewer people doing the job, or worse-trained people. NJ is a state with a high cost of living and good opportunities for people with college degrees. Consequently, teacher pay will get higher over time, which means fewer teachers or higher taxes, or a serious degradation in the quality of people becoming teachers. That is not the full story of costs, far from it, but it is part of the reason pay has increased, as you've cited.

This is also why Downton Abbey is set in the 1910s and not today. Baumol's cost disease killed off skilled servant labor for all but the wealthiest people along with technical change. But who's going to replace teachers the way that valets have proven dispensable?

It would seem your argument is that class size should steadily increase over time. (Many of the new staff that have lowered teacher:pupil ratio have gone into special needs one-on-one; as angus cited, regular and advanced students have worse options than ever.)

Anyway, we can't discuss teacher pay without discussing this dilemma.