The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

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So how much of an idiot is this governor? Now, I am certainly no fan of public employee unions and perhaps they are being coddled in Wisconsin, I am not sure. I have seen his proposals to increase the contributions workers make to their healthcare and pensions and I agree with that. But where things go awry is when he tries to take away collective bargaining rights from the employees.

What does taking away the rights of unions to collect dues have to do with the deficit? What does having to have a yearly vote to keep your union together have to do with the deficit? This moron overreached and it's sad Republicans here can't see that. I also don't like public employee unions, but this bill goes above and beyond just taking away plush benefits from them. Keep the unions in line, but don't take away people's rights to form them.

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Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

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The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here.
As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called.

Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right?  I wonder how they should be dealt with, if they are refusing to follow orders.

They should just hire blackwater. They will crack skulls with bullets if need be.

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The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here.
As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called.

Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right?  I wonder how they should be dealt with, they are refusing to follow orders.

If Walker tries to call out the guard he has no future in politics no matter how heroic it seems to conservatives, Americans do not enjoy the sight of the military beating up peaceful protesters, some of us learned a thing or two from the sixties.
And if he does end up paying us like they pay teachers in Mississipi or some other anti worker state Wisconsin will get the same low quality education they get, not everyone can afford to send their kids to a fancy private school like Walker and his rich buddies who will end up getting the money they take from the teachers in another tax break.

If someone wants to be a teacher, they will, regardless of money. But there are some who become teachers for job security and money. They don't want to be teachers. It's just a job to them. These types ignore the importance of education and go on strike.

Should teachers get paid at market rates for someone with a bachelor's degree?

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Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty.

Again I don't see the difference between the administrator at a local public school making a lot of money thus affecting the quality of education or taxes and a administrator at a private school making a lot of money leading to hikes in tuition. I don't care whether my money is going to the government or a business, the point is that it's going more to the administrator than to my child's classroom. Whether it is a private or public school is highly irrelevant. I pay taxes in US dollars and I pay tuition in US dollars. 

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Here's a random question/thoughts: If schools are privatized there is no doubt in my mind that adminstrators (and god forbid it's a chain of schools with seperate corporate headquarters), especially at the higher end, would be paid hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps even $1 Million+ depending on how many schools they own (bet it will still be less than the amount of schools run by the guy in LA County, and I doubt he gets paid much more than 100k, which of course most people will bitch about government employees receiving).

So why do we bitch so much when it's government employees who serve us make a decent wage while we say nothing when the higher ups of corporations that serve us make Millions of dollars? And just like a school administrator making a lot of money will possibly lead to higher taxes, a school administrator in a private school making a lot of money would lead to higher tuition fees. And yet people won't bitch at all about the second situation. Why is that?

Because they are paid with public money that is why. If I were paid with public money, working as a lawyer for the government, what I was "paid" over the years would certainly be fair game - because it would be outrageous. I would be saying extremely nasty things about the lawyers' union - very nasty.

Again I don't see the difference between the administrator at a local public school making a lot of money thus affecting the quality of education or taxes and a administrator at a private school making a lot of money leading to hikes in tuition. I don't care whether my money is going to the government or a business, the point is that it's going more to the administrator than to my child's classroom. Whether it is a private or public school is highly irrelevant. I pay taxes in US dollars and I pay tuition in US dollars.  

Well if the private school tuition gets uncompetitive, students will go elsewhere. It is all set by the market, and that is all the right wants when it comes to public employees - exactly the same thing. Somehow, I strongly doubt the top administrators of private secondary schools make anything like you suggest, and indeed in general they probably make less than similar persons in the public school system. But that is neither here nor there.

Well, the bigger something gets, the more the guys on the top make while the service at the bottom remains the same. You are absolutely right that the top administrator at a private school with just one branch doesn't make anything obscene. But if there was a chain of them, the guys at the top would be making Millions, trust me. And if you don't then just take a look at any industry and find me people at the top making reasonable 200-300k a year salaries. So if these guys get to make a Million, then does the guy who runs the La unified school district also get to make a Million? Wouldn't that be the market rate for him?

Obviously I am not a fan of the teacher's union and the way they get paid is extremely retarded. They should get paid at market rates with those teaching home ec maybe making 40k but a well-liked science teacher who has been working in the district for a while should be making 100k+. And yes, good administrators in huge school districts should make 500k or more. Do you think public employees could ever get that high of salaries? You don't think the Republicans would make it a campaign issue?

Paying teachers at market rates doesn't seem to be something either the Teachers unions want or what the Republicans want. Or at least they want to pay market rate for janitors and gym teachers while paying lower than that for math and science teachers.

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Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite?

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Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite?

Is there really argument on that, Sbane.  Private schools, most notably Catholic ones, can barely afford to keep the doors open, much less pay their teachers well.  

I am sure it depends from school to school. The private schools around here certainly don't seem to be struggling....

And again what do you think will happen if the schooling industry was privatized? Chains will spring up and the guys at the top will make boatloads of money (and perhaps it will be justified by the market but no public school administrator would make that sort of money). If you think otherwise, I would like you to look into this beautiful oceanfront property I have in Baker, Ca. I will give it to you half off.

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Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite?

I am not sure what you mean by "workers," but when I researched this issue heavily during the voucher campaign about 15 years ago (I was a speaker on that subject), private school teachers made less than public school ones (sometimes considerably less), and the administrative structures tended to be far learner and meaner than public school, with the latter bloated. I don't know about the janitorial pay scales.

By the way, I really would like to pay public school teachers more. If only they could be hired and fired based on performance, and we were attracting the A students to the profession, rather than the C students from third rate colleges. And then of course, what goes on in the classroom needs to be changed.  

I said "workers" so everybody was included like Janitors, Teachers, Administrators etc. I am sure the private school business is pretty cutthroat right now. It won't be if it is privatized though, just keep that in mind.

I basically agree with your second statement, which is quite similar to what Steve Poizner said in a debate once. Take away the plush benefits from public employees but pay them at market rates. The only problem with that is at the higher up positions where the true market rate is pretty damn high. Again we are fine with CEO's making that sort of money, but there would be extreme outrage if a guy in government did, even if it was the market rate.

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Oh yeah Torie, why do you think workers in public schools make more than those in private schools? Cite?

Is there really argument on that, Sbane.  Private schools, most notably Catholic ones, can barely afford to keep the doors open, much less pay their teachers well. 

I am sure it depends from school to school. The private schools around here certainly don't seem to be struggling....

And again what do you think will happen if the schooling industry was privatized? Chains will spring up and the guys at the top will make boatloads of money (and perhaps it will be justified by the market but no public school administrator would make that sort of money). If you think otherwise, I would like you to look into this beautiful oceanfront property I have in Baker, Ca. I will give it to you half off.

I'm not looking to privatize, honestly.  The transition would be disasterous.

I may differ from others, but the salaries don't bother me too much, but legacy costs have to be reduced and it as to be easier to get rid of the bums.......that applies to all unions.....and in fact all business.

Salaries are certainly not the problem, the bums who are protected from being fired are. I knew a teacher who had been teaching at my school for 30 years, probably making close to 100k, and the class she taught was basic computer skills (which most high schoolers know by elementary school these days). On the flip side I had an AP chemistry teacher who just finished her PhD and had taught at the school for only a year. I doubt she made more than 40-50k. Perhaps the district supplemented some of her income since we are a wealthy district, but that can't happen in most schools.

Also at this school I had a AP history teacher who identified himself as a communist (he is really a socialist but he wanted to shock us). Even he had a huge problem with the union. Now I hear he has left the school for the private sector. He was one of the best teachers at our school and raised AP scores during the time he was there. If there was ever a person deserving of higher merit pay (he was also a young so he get a pittance) it was him. Now he is gone but all the incompetents are still there. Oh well.

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Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

It's actually not that bad at all,and I bet similar measures are being put forth in many different states. The problem isn't with that though, it's with the union busting portions of the bill. What does not requiring workers to pay union dues have to do with the budget?

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Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

Easy to see why they're fighting this so hard.

It's only become such a big deal due to the effort to take away collective bargaining rights. I bet cuts like this are happening in a lot of different places and there is not this much outrage. Cut benefits but don't take away people's rights. Pretty simple.

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Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

Easy to see why they're fighting this so hard.

It's only become such a big deal due to the effort to take away collective bargaining rights. I bet cuts like this are happening in a lot of different places and there is not this much outrage. Cut benefits but don't take away people's rights. Pretty simple.

I live in  a school district where there is a battle going on between the school board and teachers union over having the teachers pay more for their benefits.  The entry level salaries for teachers here is pretty decent, like 50 or 60k and I'd say most make at least 70k or more, and a significant portion are in the 90-100k range.  Its been pretty nasty.  The commonwealth hasn't done anything like Walker, and the teachers havent called in sick, but they're deliberately doing the minimum (not showing up to parent teacher nights, even stuff like not decorating the bulletin boards in the hallways etc).

I dont blame them for defending what they have, but when the economy sucks like it does, expecting the taxpayer to fund their salaries and their insurance/pension plans doesnt endear them to anyone.

Oh, I am no fan of the teachers union at all. Not one bit. But the right thing to do is play hardball and make them contribute more to their pensions and healthcare (I am guessing salaries mostly are at market rates, but there can be distortions due to people who have been skating along for a long time without adding much value) but don't take away their collective bargaining rights. No one said the negotiations were going to be easy, but it needs to be done. And if teachers start doing the sorts of things you mentioned, just because they have to contribute a bit more, they will ultimately lose the PR war.

In Wisconsin Walker has overreached and basically re-ignited the entire union movement. A battle he should have won, he has managed to lose. He certainly has in my eyes, especially with the sweetheart deals for police and firefighters. Surely you agree that is wrong?

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Did you know the teachers that are striking, calling in sick, whatever, make no contribution to their health or pension plans, zero?  Did you know that what is being proposed is that they pay for 12.5% of their health insurance premiums, and contribute something like 5% of their salary or something to their pension plan?  That is their pay cut. Oh the horror, the horror. Anyone in private industry getting that deal would have an orgasm.

It's actually not that bad at all,and I bet similar measures are being put forth in many different states. The problem isn't with that though, it's with the union busting portions of the bill. What does not requiring workers to pay union dues have to do with the budget?

 It would be better to just create a new world order when the contract ends, and then the teachers or whomever can do what they are doing now, call in sick, strike, get Obama involved, unleash the DNC, and so forth. This passion play needs to be gone through either way.

This is what needs to be done. This is what should have been done when the contracts were negotiated in the first place. If this strike and protest was going on just because of increased contributions, they would lose. They might still lose of course, but Republicans just got hurt again amongst the working class. That was not necessary. You can argue Walker was indeed fighting for the working class, so they don't have to pay more and more for teacher's salaries, but by using these tactics he basically declared war on union guys everywhere and in every industry.

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In wake of agreeing to the concessions, wouldn't that be unnecessary?

What will be unnecessary? Busting the unions? That was the whole point of this bill.

The concessions demanded from the unions may be tough, but they are nothing unusual. Similar deals are being cut all over America. This fight is all about whether people should be able to collectively bargain.

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And, of course, Ohio is next.

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I highly support this part of the bill. The most messed up part about public employee unions is when the big shots decide not to take pay cuts, and the new guy is the one who gets axed. It's ridiculous.

Does this bill actually try weakening collective bargaining though, instead of making some common sense reform as to what exactly the unions can bargain for?

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Do corporations get to be considered individuals still if the unions get dismantled?

Of course they do.

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The hammer drops.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703529004576160742045911986.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Ohio joins the party and prepares to disband public sector unions. And, thankfully, they only have majority requirements for quorum.

I don't often get a little frightened and oddly hyperbolic and conspiratorial, but the amount of cheerleading you and others in this thread are doing is downright creepy considering the obvious motivations behind these moves. This is about crippling the Democratic Party electorally, this is about crippling the organizational capabilities that left-wing grassroots depends upon, this is about eliminating the only, the only, competition corporate money has in American politics.

This is literally about destroying elements of our democracy for partisan purposes. And people like you scare the sh**t out of me when I think about what a future America could look like after this.

It's not simply a political power issue, its a sovreignty issue. Basically the government is surrending sovreignty to the large private estates that share ownership in the corporations. Its what was called the Latifundia in the Late Roman Empire and was the basis to start whittling away at the sovreignty and territorial integrity of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century A.D.

Now I know we have come full circle if liberals are making comparisons to Rome.

Rome had other issues with sovereignty beyond that, ones which I doubt you would want to make a comparison on to today's US.

They also had a flow of wealth out of Gaul, Italy and Iberia towards the Middle East, and the Han Empire of China. Gold for Silk (I realize its oversimplification of the trade system of 250-400 AD ) eventually leads you with a lot of useless fine clothing and no money. Plus the clothes wear out. Kind of like dollars for oil, today. This is why in 1000 AD the two centers of world finance (and ironically two ends of the same trade route) was China and the Middle East.

For the first point, I guess a conservative could make an argument against immigration though the US is more structurally equiped to deal with it than Rome. ...and of course, there are slight similarities between terrorist attacks and German, Iranian and Arab raiders...mainly being that they are transient, short-lived and expensive events orchestrated by very desperate people.

Oil Shieks....Chinese silk traders?...Well, I guess this is another comparison with Rome that's in order, then?

Not against immigration but against Balkanization.

 When we have certain places in the US where the mere presence or sight of the US Flag is feared to risk a riot, I would say that we are far less united then America could be and far more vulnerable then a country founded the way America was should be.

That is absolutely ing ridiculous. There is a US flag flying on top of the damn school that caused the controversy in the first place.

Stop being a dumb and realize that those kids were trying to rile up people on Cinco De Mayo. They were the ones starting the ethnic tensions, not the kids trying to celebrate Cinco De Mayo (which apparently isn't even celebrated that much in Mexico making the situation even more amusing).

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I mean really when people have a problem with Mexican immigrants celebrating their culture one f'in day out of the damn year, it's the people getting offended by it who are causing the divisions, not the immigrants.

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You have a very short time to retract your factually incorrect statements and grandstanding before my opinion of you resorts to that of what it was a year ago for the following reasons:

1. WRONG INCIDENT!!!!!!!!!
2. unfair judgement and bias
3. Failling to notice who I actually laid blame for the racial tensions on (it wasn't the immigrant).

1. Ok, fair enough, wrong incident. What are you talking about then and was it more of a big deal than the incident I am referring to? Otherwise I don't see how I was wrong in assuming this is what you were talking about. Maybe I was wrong in assuming at all, but one would have to assume given the lack of information in that post.

2. If you weren't talking about the incident I was referring about, obviously I have no right to call you a dumb (and calling anyone a dumb is well...dumb but if people were still bringing that little incident up....), and thus I unequivocally take it back. Though now I'm curious what you were referring to.....

3. Uh...you said the US has flaws. Is that where you were trying to lay the blame?

Actually one would think you are implying that the fact that there are places in the country where a US flag could cause a riot is symptomatic of  the problem and the people responsible for that situation should be blamed. I am still curious what the hell you are talking about but let me just say that I doubt there is any place in the US where the sight of a US flag will cause a riot. That is a ridiculous statement and I stand behind my words there.

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By the way what was your opinion of me a year ago and why did it change? Have I been pissing you off less lately or something?

Also sorry for the threadsh**t but I wasn't the one talking about Rome and racial tensions in America in a thread about Wisconsin.

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So what exactly passed in the end?

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Ah, so the Republican power grab is complete. Corporations will now have complete control of the political system. Hooray! What a great day for America!

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Well this is another example of how Republicans actually get stuff done. Doyle did NOTHING in office for 8 YEARS and Republicans did all this in less then 3 months.

Why is getting rid of collective bargaining rights, the unions right to participate in the political process, something that needed to be done? The budget needed to be balanced, and if needed the unions needed to take deep cuts, which they did agree to, but the crap that got passed is just a bunch of extraneous elephant dung.

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Why is getting rid of collective bargaining rights, the unions right to participate in the political process, something that needed to be done? The budget needed to be balanced, and if needed the unions needed to take deep cuts, which they did agree to, but the crap that got passed is just a bunch of extraneous elephant dung.

Mostly because the unions keep stacking the deck in their favor.

"We have the ability to elect our own boss."

What are you even talking about? They agreed to the cuts. That's all that matters.

It should be only about the budget, not your political wet dreams.