The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[Landslide Lyndon]

The spectacle of some people showing more outrage against teachers than against the Wall Strett wizards and bankers who brought the world economy to its knees, is really depressing.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I still think Walker's an idiot....but public employee unions are a terrible disease.

When someone has a rotten tooth, the therapy isn't cutting his head off.

[Landslide Lyndon]

So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS?  You make more than them and are not fired.

Mostly because there's no money to pay them.

If that was the case than why not go after the Police and Firefighters Unions??  Why exempt them?

In CA, they are the worst, particularly the fire fighters. Some with all the benefits make over 500K per year. And then the featherbedding - oh the featherbedding.

If that's the case then you should scold Walker, not praise him. Dividing public workers into privileged and non-privileged is disgusting and makes Walker a vindictive prick who punishes those that supported his opponent, not some kind of role model for fiscal conservatism.

[Landslide Lyndon]

The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities.

I hope it inspires the issuance of pink slips to them, myself. Different strokes for different folks.

As do I.

So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS?  You make more than them and are not fired.

They're public employees, lazy as sh!t and don't know anything.

Why thanx for making that assumption of me.

Be thankful he didn't call you f****ts.

[Landslide Lyndon]

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Ah, divide and conquer. I had not thought of that. Yes, that tactic should be added to the arsenal. Anything to take the public employee unions down is just doing the Lord's work. I really hope the Dems keep doing the public employees bidding - and makes that their signature issue. That should erode them down to their hardcore base - nicely.  

Torie, you disappoint me and I'm not joking. I expected that kind of attitude from a teenage Ron Paul fan who dreams libertarian utopias, not somebody that actually inhabits the real world.

[Landslide Lyndon]

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Ah, divide and conquer. I had not thought of that. Yes, that tactic should be added to the arsenal. Anything to take the public employee unions down is just doing the Lord's work. I really hope the Dems keep doing the public employees bidding - and makes that their signature issue. That should erode them down to their hardcore base - nicely.  

Torie, you disappoint me and I'm not joking. I expected that kind of attitude from a teenage Ron Paul fan who dreams libertarian utopias, not somebody that actually inhabits the real world.

I am hardcore right wing on public employee unions. As Michael Barone wrote, they are cannibals eating us alive. They in general are grossly overpaid, and massively over-pensioned, and as I say, in some arenas, like firefighters, grossly overstaffed. Why should states and cities go broke over that, and why should folks who make less money than they do pay more taxes so that they can be paid way above market?  It's Robin Hood in reverse!

So, I make no apologies on this one. They need a good swiving, and they need it now.

That might be true in states like California, New York and Illinois. But Wisconsin from what I know was always a good government state that faced little if any problems from its public workers and their unions. Wishing their destruction just because you hate your own state's unions is juvenile behavior and shows a level of prejudice that is quite disturbing.

On the bright side, at least you admit that Walker's actions have nothing to do with balancing the budget and fiscal conservatism. He just wants to punish people who opposed his election.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Teachers are overpaid all of sudden? What a load! My mom retired in 2005 after 30 years and made about 35k/year. If you want to cherry pick obscene salaries, you probably want to start with hedge fund managers.

Taxpayers don't pay those.

I have four letters for you: T A R P.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I hope that nobody will faint with surprise.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php

Wisconsin's new Republican governor has framed his assault on public worker's collective bargaining rights as a needed measure of fiscal austerity during tough times.

The reality is radically different. Unlike true austerity measures -- service rollbacks, furloughs, and other temporary measures that cause pain but save money -- rolling back worker's bargaining rights by itself saves almost nothing on its own. But Walker's doing it anyhow, to knock down a barrier and allow him to cut state employee benefits immediately.

Furthermore, this broadside comes less than a month after the state's fiscal bureau -- the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office -- concluded that Wisconsin isn't even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus. In fact, they say that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office.

"Walker was not forced into a budget repair bill by circumstances beyond he control," says Jack Norman, research director at the Institute for Wisconsin Future -- a public interest think tank. "He wanted a budget repair bill and forced it by pushing through tax cuts... so he could rush through these other changes."

[Landslide Lyndon]

We still don't know what they are making, and maybe dealing with collective bargaining rights is just the foreplay before the budget cuts, which would be facilitated. Or maybe Walker just hates public employee unions in the abstract, when really the thing is to make them ineffectual - to wit, unable to raise wages above market. So is Walker a smart or a dumb? To be, or not to be?

According to Franzl he is an idiot. I think I'll trust him on that.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I hope that nobody will faint with surprise.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wisconsin-gov-walker-ginned-up-budget-shortfall-to-undercut-worker-rights.php

Wisconsin's new Republican governor has framed his assault on public worker's collective bargaining rights as a needed measure of fiscal austerity during tough times.

The reality is radically different. Unlike true austerity measures -- service rollbacks, furloughs, and other temporary measures that cause pain but save money -- rolling back worker's bargaining rights by itself saves almost nothing on its own. But Walker's doing it anyhow, to knock down a barrier and allow him to cut state employee benefits immediately.

Furthermore, this broadside comes less than a month after the state's fiscal bureau -- the Wisconsin equivalent of the Congressional Budget Office -- concluded that Wisconsin isn't even in need of austerity measures, and could conclude the fiscal year with a surplus. In fact, they say that the current budget shortfall is a direct result of tax cut policies Walker enacted in his first days in office.

"Walker was not forced into a budget repair bill by circumstances beyond he control," says Jack Norman, research director at the Institute for Wisconsin Future -- a public interest think tank. "He wanted a budget repair bill and forced it by pushing through tax cuts... so he could rush through these other changes."

This is just sickening. This entirely issue honestly just leaves me speechless. How people actually defend this behavior is stunning. (Though maybe, I guess, I shouldn't be as surprised as I am.)

Apparently some people are pinning for the good ol' days of the Gilded Age. You know, before this socialist scumbag FDR allowed the unwashed masses to obtain rights and privileges.

[Landslide Lyndon]

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No, I didn't say that at all.

Reading comprehension is fundamental...you must have gone to Madison public schools.

Actually, he's from Belgium, speaks Dutch as his mother tongue, and is discussing this issue in English, which is not his first language.  And I dare say his comprehension of English is every bit as good as yours.  How many languages do you speak, Krazen?  Or is learning another language soshullist?

He must have learned that language when he lived in the state of virgniah.

[Landslide Lyndon]

What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out.

No, you've got that backwards - the rich exact their privileges from a gencide upon the poor.  Even if one prefers to be an exploiter (who wouldn't?), the whole system rests upon the back of the tortured worker, so he is absolutely necessary, and hence 'valuable'.  Happily 'poor people spring up out of the ground like mushrooms', as the old Thai saying goes, and so there are always more to use.  But there's the rub - they are useful, something a rich person by definition cannot be.

Your over-the-top socialist propaganda makes no sense.  There is no genocide on the poor.  That is, unless in socialist doublespeak, genocide means ever-increasing life expectancy and living standards.

And how can you see no difference between a government that takes money from its citizens at gunpoint and a the private sector, which only takes money from those willing to spend it?

The day of reckoning has arrived.  Those who pay the bloated salaries and pensions of public sector employees are sick and tired of it.  That's what Wisconsin voters said in 2010.  The governor is doing the work of the people who voted for him.

Oh give it a break. As Px said, there's no budget issue in Wisconsin except of the Governor's own creation by deliberately causing a budget shortfall. I seriously doubt the voters went to the voting booth with public employee salaries on their minds. Give the dishonesty a rest.

Dude, it's not the first time Republicans choose to ignore reality when it doesn't fit their ideology. I bet that if you ask cinyc he will tell you in detail how social security is bringing the budget to its knees and tax cuts pay for themselves.

[Landslide Lyndon]

It appears they've flown to Rockford, Illinois.

Not any more.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/wis-dem-legislator-we-are-no-longer-at-hotel-in-rockford-and-focus-should-be-on-the-issues.php

[Landslide Lyndon]

Hard to call a woman that term.  Especially Texasgurl, who I've known on the forum for many years.  You, on the other hand...

There are lesbians too you know.
And having an insensitive and arrogant frat boy like you calling me a f****t is a badge of honor.
You know, something like Stark calling me a Zionist.

[Landslide Lyndon]

The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here.
As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called.

Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right?  I wonder how they should be dealt with, they are refusing to follow orders.

If Walker tries to call out the guard he has no future in politics no matter how heroic it seems to conservatives, Americans do not enjoy the sight of the military beating up peaceful protesters, some of us learned a thing or two from the sixties.
And if he does end up paying us like they pay teachers in Mississipi or some other anti worker state Wisconsin will get the same low quality education they get, not everyone can afford to send their kids to a fancy private school like Walker and his rich buddies who will end up getting the money they take from the teachers in another tax break.

Let's make one thing clear: Governor Walker NEVER threatened to call out the national guard if government workers protested his proposed changes to bargaining laws.  That's an extremely dishonest meme pushed by the Progressive Change Campaign Committee.  PolitiFact calls is a pants-on-fire lie.  And the Wisconsin National Guard hasn't been called up for anything.

But we here on the Atlas Forum all know that Talking Points Memo is always right and "progressives" can't lie - so they must just be making that up.

Talking Points Memo for your information is a much more credible source of news than your beloved FOX. They have gotten numerous journalistic awards, and for a good reason.

As for the budget numbers you so cavalierly dismissed as an "evil liberal plot", they were posted by the Wisconsin budget office which is a non-partisan state organization, like the CBO is for congress.

Better luck next time you try refuting facts with lies cinyc.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

[Landslide Lyndon]

For those supporting the unions, how would you close Wisconsin's budget gap?

There is no budget gap. According the fiscal bureau (the Wisconsin equivalent of CBO) the state was on track to have a balanced budget, or even a surplus, by the end of the current fiscal year.

There was a temporary gap because of some tax-cutting measures Walker pushed through the legislature during the first days of his administration.
  

[Landslide Lyndon]

Talking Points Memo for your information is a much more credible source of news than your beloved FOX. They have gotten numerous journalistic awards, and for a good reason.

As for the budget numbers you so cavalierly dismissed as an "evil liberal plot", they were posted by the Wisconsin budget office which is a non-partisan state organization, like the CBO is for congress.

Better luck next time you try refuting facts with lies cinyc.

You and your liberal friends can keep on spinning, claiming Wisconsin would have no budget deficit but for those evil Republicans and their reckless spending.  But you begin to sound like Baghdad Bob when folks recognize that almost every state is racking up a huge deficit, and even the outgoing DEMOCRATIC Wisconsin governor told his successor that he would be facing a deficit of $2.2 BILLION - and that estimate was rosy.  The Legislative Fiscal Bureau estimated the deficit to be $2.7 billion, and an economist at the University of Wisconsin at $3.1 billion.  

In fact, according to the state's comptroller, Wisconsin has run in the red for over a decade, and the size of Wisconsin's structural deficit has increased every year during that period but one.  But now that a Republican is in office, Wisconsin's deficit would have magically disappeared but for their reckless spending and/or tax cuts.  Sure.

Governor Walker must be a miracle worker to close a $2 to $3 billion deficit in just a few months!  The liberal sources from which you get your "facts" should be lauding him for such a remarkable fiscal turnaround!  But they're not - instead, they are attacking him for not lavishing as much of the public fisc on public employees as they would like.

You should check your sources because they are rather spotty. Then again like your beloved FOX you care more about creating narratives rather than telling the truth.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html

In fact, like just about every other state in the country, Wisconsin is managing in a weak economy. The difference is that Wisconsin is managing better -- or at least it had been managing better until Walker took over. Despite shortfalls in revenue following the economic downturn that hit its peak with the Bush-era stock market collapse, the state has balanced budgets, maintained basic services and high-quality schools, and kept employment and business development steadier than the rest of the country. It has managed so well, in fact, that the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau recently released a memo detailing how the state will end the 2009-2011 budget biennium with a budget surplus.

In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.

(snip)_

Here is the document. Enjoy reading.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf

[Landslide Lyndon]

This is hard to believe. Walker's changes only affected hundreds of millions. It would not be enough to turn a $100 million surplus into a $2-$3 billion deficit.

There is no billion dollar deficit. Walker is just lying.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf

[Landslide Lyndon]

This is hard to believe. Walker's changes only affected hundreds of millions. It would not be enough to turn a $100 million surplus into a $2-$3 billion deficit.

There is no billion dollar deficit. Walker is just lying.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf

You want us to believe that TPM is the only one to pick up on a bald faced lie? The Leg. Fiscal Bureau's report is clearly measuring something different than the projected budget, based on spending plans. I really don't think this is the appropriate line of attack, px75.

Aiming at the draconian nature of the attack on the unions' bargaining rights might be more fruitful. Also, Smash255's comments in the other thread about how the law enforcement and firefighter unions shared in the sacrifice, just as much money could be saved.

TPM uncovered the US attorneys scandal when everybody else was asleep. I certainly trust them more than CNN or any other "objective" news source.

Also, I'd guess that budget issues in Wisconsin are considered too wonky and boring for the horserace-obsessed traditional media.
Anyway, the numbers are there. If you don't trust them it's another story. 

[Landslide Lyndon]

px,

cinyc is citing Politifact (Pulitzer prize, called Michelle Bachmann "beyond preposterous", acknowledged that the stimulus created 1 million jobs, etc. etc. etc).

Cinyc cited politifact about the use of National Guard against protesters, not the budget situation.

As for the fiscal bureau document, it's what we have versus Walker's word.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

This isn't a filibuster.

Semantics. The overall effect is the same.
Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

This isn't a filibuster.

Semantics. The overall effect is the same.
Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it.

No, because they can still get stuff done while filibustering.

Like what? Passing resolutions about how everybody loves puppies?

[Landslide Lyndon]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

This isn't a filibuster.

Semantics. The overall effect is the same.
Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it.

No, because they can still get stuff done while filibustering.

Like what? Passing resolutions about how everybody loves puppies?

Like any other business.  You're implying that they accomplish nothing.  If that were the case, there would be nothing to filibuster...

Exactly. Remember when Dick Shelby put a blanket hold on everything because the administration denied him money for some pork barrel project?
Or when the Republicans declared than they would filibuster everything if the senate didn't pass the tax cuts for the rich?

[Landslide Lyndon]

What's your point?

That after abusing filibuster for the last two years in such an unprecedented way, Republicans have no right to complain about what Democratic legislators do in Wisconsin right now.

His point is that both methods obstruct legislative business effectively. Doesn't matter what you call it.

Bingo! Semantics are irrelevant.