The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[Smash255]

So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS?  You make more than them and are not fired.

Mostly because there's no money to pay them.

If that was the case than why not go after the Police and Firefighters Unions??  Why exempt them?

[Smash255]

The fact that the Police and Firefighters Unions are not included in this is problematic.  Walker could save the same amount of $$$ and reduce the cutbacks to the teachers unions and others if all Unions were involved in the cutbacks and not just those who opposed Walker's candidacy.

[Smash255]

Horrible People for blocking a good piece of legislation. The GOP agenda in these state is not extreme considering that they were elected to right the wrong of fiscal insanity that Wisconsion has had with the radical progressive agenda. So to say it, I'm for the employee but in times like this sacrifices must be made. Allow teachers to opt out of being in unions.   The right has made her sacrifices for a long time. Now the left must make many of their own.

As PX75's article points out more than half the deficit is due to programs Walker has put in place after he got elected.  Not to mention if getting costs down was such a concern don't you think it would be a good idea to hold the police and Firefighters Unions to the same rules you are holding the teachers and other Unions to?

[Smash255]

Amazing, this all in a state that has a surplus.

The media says it is minus 3.5 billion.

Where the hell did they get those numbers? Anyways:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html

The so called 'surplus' is the current fiscal year (2010). The deficit is for fiscal year 2011 and 2012 under existing policy, which obviously Walker is changing.

Walker's policies he put forth as soon as he took over made the deficit much worse. 

[Smash255]

Edit: fixed quoting.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Because Governor Walker claims that there is $3.6 billion multi-year deficit, and an at least $2 billion deficit has been backed up by multiple sources, yet the report neither mentions this figure nor explains how the 2010/2011 figures could be so different from the projections to 2013.

Instead, they spend a great deal of time trying to predict national macroeconomic variables which don't necessarily have bearing on Wisconsin, nor are they the ones in the best position to make such predictions.

The introduction says: "In the odd-numbered years, our report includes estimated revenues and expenditures for the current fiscal year and tax collection projections for each year of the next biennium. This report presents the conclusions of our analysis."

The Legislative Fiscal Bureau does not have any power to appropriate funds.  Their purpose is to produce information on which the legislature can make decisions.  They can make projections on future revenues.  They can provide information on the current budget, and highlight unfunded liabilities of the state, and whether the current appropriations will meet the actual needs of the state.

How is this in any way misleading?  Who is being mislead?

BTW, the fiscal note on benefit cuts for government employees show a much larger savings for local governments than for the state government.

How much impact does the policies Walker put through when he first took office on the deficit?

[Smash255]

How much impact does the policies Walker put through when he first took office on the deficit?

Pretty minimally. The money that Jim Doyle borrowed from the medical malpractice fund (and Walker has to pay back) is a much larger quantity.

Actually no.  More than 1/2 the deficit is caused by Walker's programs.

[Smash255]

The actual truth calculated by an outside economist, not the bs tossed by the liberals.


http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf


Projected deficit:


Two-year total $2.877 billion


In July, the state Supreme Court ruled that the state must return $200 million to the
state’s Injured Patients and Families Compensation Fund that it had transferred to the
General Fund in October 2007. The courts have not yet determined a schedule for the
transfer.  If part or all of the required transfer is scheduled during the next biennium, the
state’s structural fiscal deficit could be as large as $3.1 billion.

That report was from BEFORE Walker's new programs.

The state does have a deficit problem, but Walker made the problem much worse and then decided to go after the Teachers and Unions to fix a budget problem, that he helped make much worse in the first place.   

Get rid of the programs that Walker pushed for when he took office that exploded the deficit even more.  Perhaps include all the Unions and not just the ones Gov Walker does not like.  Doing something like that would result in less extreme givebacks being forced from the Unions, the ability to keep the Collective Bargaining Rights, and perhaps yes some cutbacks, but something perhaps everyone can agree with.

That is a better alternative to going full throttle for the Unions in order to help close a deficit you helped double.

[Smash255]

The actual truth calculated by an outside economist, not the bs tossed by the liberals.


http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf


Projected deficit:


Two-year total $2.877 billion


In July, the state Supreme Court ruled that the state must return $200 million to the
state’s Injured Patients and Families Compensation Fund that it had transferred to the
General Fund in October 2007. The courts have not yet determined a schedule for the
transfer.  If part or all of the required transfer is scheduled during the next biennium, the
state’s structural fiscal deficit could be as large as $3.1 billion.

That report was from BEFORE Walker's new programs.

The state does have a deficit problem, but Walker made the problem much worse and then decided to go after the Teachers and Unions to fix a budget problem, that he helped make much worse in the first place.   

Get rid of the programs that Walker pushed for when he took office that exploded the deficit even more.  Perhaps include all the Unions and not just the ones Gov Walker does not like.  Doing something like that would result in less extreme givebacks being forced from the Unions, the ability to keep the Collective Bargaining Rights, and perhaps yes some cutbacks, but something perhaps everyone can agree with.

That is a better alternative to going full throttle for the Unions in order to help close a deficit you helped double.

What programs?

Economic Development Plan
Health Savings Accounts
Corporate Tax Incentives.

[Smash255]

How does $150 million in spending add 1.5 billion to the deficit, Smash?



Remember Walker isn't trying to achieve solvency for a year or two, but for the long term. Hence for the purposes of what he is trying to do, the 125 million fictional surplus isn't as relevant as the 2.5 to 3.2 billion deficit the state is facing over next few years.


If anything Walker's spending will actually help the situation long term (which is why similar tax incentives were passed in the jobs bills).

Poor wording on my part.  The budget deficit is going to be higher than thought a few months ago, much of that difference is due to Walker.  Its also not just spending increases, but more tax cuts for wealthy corporations.

[Smash255]

Apparently the teachers have folded on the financial issues. So now it is apparently all about castrating the public employee non public safety union(s). And so it goes.

Am I missing anything? 
[/quote

Yup that is pretty much it.  The teachers have agreed to all the concessions called for by Walker.  This is all about the Collective Bargaining Rights that Walker is trying to take away from the Unions.

[Smash255]

Seems like some notification law about this action was broken (just put on CNN and heard the end of the discussion), but under the law 24 hours are suppose to be given for something like this and 2 hours under emergency procedure, none of which was followed.

[Smash255]

Seems like some notification law about this action was broken (just put on CNN and heard the end of the discussion), but under the law 24 hours are suppose to be given for something like this and 2 hours under emergency procedure, none of which was followed.

From what I understand, the Republicans just cut out all the budgetary parts of the current bill, so i don't think that applies.  There's nothing "new" in this bill, which is why they can do this.

I'm no expert on this particular law, just saying what I heard, it seemed like making that changed is what required the 24 hour notification.

[Smash255]

So what exactly passed in the end?

Basically the collective bargaining rights they were trying to strip they were able to strip.  They did so by taking it out of the budget process saying it had no impact on the budget.  So they argued that this needed to be done because of its impact on the budget, but passed it through a way which it couldn't impact the budget.

[Smash255]

Holy Crap just saw how this unfolded, Insane

[Smash255]

Very bizarre. 

During the discussion on the issue, a Democratic Assemblyman was reading off the open meetings rule requiring 24 hours notice.  Then all of a sudden as he is speaking the GOP State Senators call for a roll call and vote on the issue.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/41998976#41998976

[Smash255]

What a Pyrrhic victory, I see no way for Republicans in Wisconsin to rebound from this unless the protests get really, really, really violent tomorrow and there is more blowback from that. News coverage should be pretty universally negative on their legislative tactics and their rhetoric. Now that the debate is purely about collective bargaining rights vs. no collective bargaining rights and the Republicans can't hide behind the "OMFG budget crisis!!!" argument, they will lose even more popular support.

"GOP uses controversial tactic to overcome controversial Democratic tactic" doesn't exactly strike me as a reputation buster.  I don't think anyone is going to see this as some truly unfair political move that doesn't already hate the GOP.

And speaking of that, Quorum busting is far, FAR less Democratic than legislative trickery is.  Remember that the only reason that we're in this situation is because the Democrats basically decided to take the state legislature hostage.  It seems extremely hypocritical to complain about the GOP muscling a bill through when the reason they had to is because the Democrats were busying hiding in Illinois.

The Dems bolted because Walker and the GOP refused to negotiate or busting unions.  The GOP claimed that this was about the budget, but this proves this was never about the budget or fiscal issues.  On top of that the way they passed it was absolutely nuts and was blatantly illegal.

This video is Absolutely Crazy

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/41998976#41998976

[Smash255]

This video is Absolutely Crazy

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/41998976#41998976

Speechless.

Its absolutely nuts.  You have the Minority leader of the Assembly reading off the actual rules over the open meetings law, and then as he is speaking being cut off for the roll call vote in the Senate.  It is crazy.

[Smash255]

Well this is another example of how Republicans actually get stuff done. Doyle did NOTHING in office for 8 YEARS and Republicans did all this in less then 3 months.

They just PROVED this was about UNION BUSTING and had NOTHING to do with the budget, the deficit or any fiscal issues at all.  They just PROVED that.   On top of that, they decided to break the open meetings law.

This is how this happened

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/41998976#41998976


Disgusting, absolutely disgusting

[Smash255]

I don't even care if it was about the budget, good thing it passed anyways. Good buy to public union power in Wisconsin!

So you don't care that Walker lied his ass off when he claimed this was a budget issue, and a deficit issue?

You don't care that the Republicans broke open meetings laws?

[Smash255]

So you don't care that Walker lied his ass off when he claimed this was a budget issue, and a deficit issue?

You don't care that the Republicans broke open meetings laws?

I doubt anyone cares about that any more than they care about the lame duck shenanighans pulled by the outgoing governor Jim Doyle and the lame duck Democrats.

This was absolutely crazy and illegal


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/vp/41998976#41998976

Not to mention its clear as day this was NEVER about the budget, this was NEVER about the deficit, this was about Union Busting and union busting only, Walker lied his ass off and its clear as day.

[Smash255]

Not to mention its clear as day this was NEVER about the budget, this was NEVER about the deficit, this was about Union Busting and union busting only, Walker lied his ass off and its clear as day.

Maybe i don't get where you are coming from here, but how on earth is this true?  Republicans are using a procedural gimmick to pass controversial legislation.  It doesn't mean that collective bargaining doesn't affect state and local budgets IMMENSELY, and seriously reduce their budget flexibility when the have a deficit to close.

Any legislation that has any budgetary or fiscal impact whatsoever can't be passed through this procedural gimmick, and must first have a quorum present.  By going around the quorum requirements the GOP is admitting that CBR has no budgetary impacts or any fiscal impacts of any kind, otherwise they could not have held the vote.  Not to mention the vote was illegal anyway since it broke open meetings laws.

[Smash255]

Not to mention its clear as day this was NEVER about the budget, this was NEVER about the deficit, this was about Union Busting and union busting only, Walker lied his ass off and its clear as day.

This IS about budgets, particularly state and local ones.  It always has been:

http://walker.wi.gov/journal_media_detail.asp?locid=177&prid=5675

Its NOT about budgets, its about Union breaking.  Based off how this passed it is NOT about budgets.  They took the legislation off of the budget rules to get around the quorum rules.    The quorum rules are also in effect for any legislation related to the budget or anything fiscal.  So by voting on this and bypassing the quorum rules, they are admitting that CBR has no fiscal or budget impact whatsoever, otherwise they could not bypass the quorum rules and could not vote on it.

[Smash255]

The Republicans have shot themselves in the foot with this. The way they did this shows a total disrespect for democracy and the rule of law, is a textbook example of backroom dealing and forcing bills down the people throat, and the backlash will become even worse now.

Kinda like what happened with healthcare, am I right? Of course I can't be right though, I'm a Republican and the Democrats were just doing what was best for the country and the people!

That bill was up for over a year, and Obama actually campaigned on something very similar, not to mention the GOP proposals.

This wasn't campaigned on, not to mention they sidestepped actual laws, broke the open meetings laws.  Not to mention they flat out LIED about this having anything to do with the budget or the deficit.

[Smash255]

To the point on the ultimate legal issue of whether a supermajority quorum is required for all bills fiscal in nature or just some, there is a 1971 formal opinion from the Wisconsin attorney general stating that a bill altering collective bargaining rights isn't fiscal as it is narrowly defined by the relevant Wisconsin constitutional provision and therefore not subject to the supermajority quorum.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1773153

Game.  Set.

Game set??  So its game set that Walker and the Republicans lied the entire time with the comment that this was about anything fiscal or budgetary in nature.  This has nothing to do with the deficit whatsoever.  So thanks for proving Walker and the Republicans lied their asses off.

Not to mention the whole breaking the open meetings law.

[Smash255]

To the point on the ultimate legal issue of whether a supermajority quorum is required for all bills fiscal in nature or just some, there is a 1971 formal opinion from the Wisconsin attorney general stating that a bill altering collective bargaining rights isn't fiscal as it is narrowly defined by the relevant Wisconsin constitutional provision and therefore not subject to the supermajority quorum.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1773153

Game.  Set.

Game set??  So its game set that Walker and the Republicans lied the entire time with the comment that this was about anything fiscal or budgetary in nature.  This has nothing to do with the deficit whatsoever.  So thanks for proving Walker and the Republicans lied their asses off.

Not to mention the whole breaking the open meetings law.

The full bill IS fiscal in nature, within the meaning of the constitution's super-majority quorum requirement.  The collective bargaining piece of the bill potentially affects budgets, especially county and local ones, down the road, but isn't swept up by the super-majority requirement.  Wisconsin courts have taken a narrow view on what is fiscal for those purposes.  Even incurring short-term debt isn't.

How is this so difficult to understand?

Thanks again for proving Walker and the Republicans lied their asses off.  They were the ones who claimed it was fiscal in nature.  They were the ones that argued it was a budget issue.  They were the ones that argued it was a deficit issue.  With how it was passed, its obvious that it wasn't.  So that shows that Walker and the GOP were lying their asses off when they suggested this was a deficit or a budget issue.  Its not and never has been, this was about Union busting plain and simple and was from the get go.