The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[krazen1211]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110216/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions

MADISON, Wis. – Thousands of teachers, prison guards and students descended on the Wisconsin Capitol for a second day Wednesday to fight a move to take union rights away from government workers in the state that first granted them more than a half-century ago.

The Statehouse filled with as many as 10,000 demonstrators who chanted, sang the national anthem and beat drums for hours. The noise level in the Rotunda rose to the level of a chainsaw, and many Madison teachers joined the protest by calling in sick in such numbers that the district had to cancel classes.

The new Republican governor, Scott Walker, is seeking passage of the nation's most aggressive anti-union proposal, which was moving swiftly through the GOP-led Legislature.

If adopted, it would mark a dramatic shift for Wisconsin, which passed a comprehensive collective bargaining law in 1959 and was the birthplace of the national union representing all non-federal public employees.





It's amazing how underhanded and thuggish some of these people have behaved over the last 3 months. For those who don't know, Wisconsin Democrats got demolished up and down the ballot in November, so they tried to ram through a lame duck union contract. They bailed a House Democrat out of jail to pass the contracts in the House, but they failed in the Senate when outgoing Democrat leader Russell Decker decided to vote his conscience. Democrats prompty relieved Decker of his majority leader status.

Here is a profile on the courage of Russell Decker.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/column/article_0a855d84-a762-5b7c-ad35-0737bdee9f90.html


Wisconsin union boss Marty Beil was not happy that Wisconsin Democrat Russell Decker wasn't doing his bidding, so he turned Decker into a pariah and called him a wh*re. So much for civility?

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It is tyranny if the legislature does something the protesters disagree with. Tea Party 2011!

If that's what they choose to believe they are more than welcome to.

But I don't think the average American cares much for namecalling or lame duck shenanighans.

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The protesters in Madison are of course heroes, and I hope that they inspire similar protests in other cities.

Truthfully, I always wondered why so called 'progessives' believed in the transferrence of wealth from low income private sector consumers to upper income state pensioners.

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We call it "freedom." Maybe you've heard of it. It's what our Founders fought for.

The Founders believed in the 'freedom' to abuse collective bargaining to abuse the taxpayer?

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So why should these people be fired for making too much, SS?  You make more than them and are not fired.

Mostly because there's no money to pay them.

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Some of the protest rhetoric has been inappropriate and I do not know enough about the salaries and benefits public workers in Wisconsin currently receive to have a strong opinion about whether they ought to make big concessions, but what I do have a strong opinion about is workers having the ability to collectively bargain. If Gov. Walker and has party insists on continuing down this path the Democrats will need to make a point of repairing the damage once they retake the legislature.

Some of the best states in the nation, such as virginia, have public sector collective bargaining bans or restrictions.

[krazen1211]

I never got why the right deems it necessary to dmeonize public sector workers. Not only is it bad politics (most people will know at least one public sector worker and have a reasonable chance to find out how the 'overpaid and overpensioned' thing is BS), it's also actively  going after the most valuable part of society, the very people we rely on every day and who are in fact ridiculously underpaid when compared to the private sector. I also find it repulsive on a personal level, as almost my entire direct family consists from teachers and othe public sector workers.

What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out.

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The fact that the Police and Firefighters Unions are not included in this is problematic.  Walker could save the same amount of $$$ and reduce the cutbacks to the teachers unions and others if all Unions were involved in the cutbacks and not just those who opposed Walker's candidacy.

It probably should. If the Democrats want to amend the bill, well, they have to come back.

[krazen1211]

I never got why the right deems it necessary to dmeonize public sector workers. Not only is it bad politics (most people will know at least one public sector worker and have a reasonable chance to find out how the 'overpaid and overpensioned' thing is BS), it's also actively  going after the most valuable part of society, the very people we rely on every day and who are in fact ridiculously underpaid when compared to the private sector. I also find it repulsive on a personal level, as almost my entire direct family consists from teachers and othe public sector workers.

What sheer nonsense. The most valuable people of society are the private sector who pay taxes into the government, not the people who take money out.

Funny how a small-government conservative like yourself seems to believe the goal of society is to put money into the government, and not to, oh I don't know, enable people to develop themselves and realize their potential. Your beloved entrepreneurs wouldn't be anywhere without their education, your prvate sector wouldn't be anywhere without roads and infrastructure,  and you yourself wouldn't be anywhere without administrative services to make sure you get to live the fantastic American life.

This is the standard liberal response that is, as usual, full of dung.

US Real education spending has doubled in the past 20 years, and teacher rolls have increased by nearly 50%.

People were realizing their economic potential in times past with much less education bloat.

[krazen1211]

Apparently some people are pinning for the good ol' days of the Gilded Age. You know, before this socialist scumbag FDR allowed the unwashed masses to obtain rights and privileges.

I really can't stop laughing at the idiocy of this statement.



Franklin Delano Roosevelt "Meticulous attention," the president insisted in 1937, "should be paid to the special relations and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government....The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service." The reason? F.D.R. believed that "[a] strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to obstruct the operations of government until their demands are satisfied. Such action looking toward the paralysis of government by those who have sworn to support it is unthinkable and intolerable."

[krazen1211]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

No, I didn't say that at all.

Reading comprehension is fundamental...you must have gone to Madison public schools.

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Apparently some people are pinning for the good ol' days of the Gilded Age. You know, before this socialist scumbag FDR allowed the unwashed masses to obtain rights and privileges.

I really can't stop laughing at the idiocy of this statement.

You mean because inequality is already worse than in the Gilded Age?

No, genius.

Rather, because FDR strongly opposed the idea of public sector unions, especially public sector union strikes like we are seeing in Madison today.



http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=15445


Organization on their part to present their views on such matters is both natural and logical, but meticulous attention should be paid to the special relationships and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government.

All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable.

[krazen1211]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

No, I didn't say that at all.

Reading comprehension is fundamental...you must have gone to Madison public schools.

Actually, he's from Belgium, speaks Dutch as his mother tongue, and is discussing this issue in English, which is not his first language.  And I dare say his comprehension of English is every bit as good as yours.  How many languages do you speak, Krazen?  Or is learning another language soshullist?

If that was true, he wouldn't have somehow confused my correct point of the number of excess teachers that this nation has (about 1.5 million worth) and excess spending (about $200 billion worth) with the idea of eliminating public education entirely.

[krazen1211]

Krazen, your literal words:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I think that even in the US education now is better than it was in the Fifties.

Based on what, exactly?

[krazen1211]

you can probably merge this with the other thread.

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Worth pointing out that the same crap is playing out at the federal level. Except the deficit spending is producing so much interest that the entire nation's future is compromised. The GOP has literally destroyed the nation for a few decades of lower taxes on richers. Unbelieveable!

Kind of a curious theory, given how interest costs on debt was at historical lows in 2009 and only swells about 3 years from now...

[krazen1211]

you can probably merge this with the other thread.

Ummm... and what, exactly, does this have to do with "desperate teachers' unions force Madison schools to cancel classes"?

The discussion was picked up there.

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Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right?  I wonder how they should be dealt with, if they are refusing to follow orders.

Article IV, §7
   Organization of legislature; quorum; compulsory attendance. Section 7. Each house shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members; and a majority of each shall constitute a quorum to do business, but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may compel the attendance of absent members in such manner and under such penalties as each house may provide.

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Really with the way this is played, this is just going to really bite Walker and the Republicans in the ass. As noted most people know at least one public sector and know how ridiculous the "overpaid" nonsense is, especially with teachers. I have a tough time seeing Wisconsin being to the right of North Dakota on this where the vast majority of people would find that claim rather comical.

No, not really.



In what is a combination of sad, amusing, and ironic, it looks like the liberals have destroyed public education in Madison, Milwaukee, and some other towns.

Madison Schools at least appear to be perpetually closed now since the teachers won't work anymore. I guess the next generation of leftists isn't getting an education anymore, and all those liberals are paying property taxes for, well, nothing.

[krazen1211]

Why is it even necessary to run to another state or wherever? Is there some bizarre law in the U.S that means that legislators can be forced to attend? I remember being confused over the Texas thing for the same reason.

The US and many state constitutions have such a provision.


Article IV, §7
   Organization of legislature; quorum; compulsory attendance. Section 7. Each house shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members; and a majority of each shall constitute a quorum to do business, but a smaller number may adjourn from day to day, and may compel the attendance of absent members in such manner and under such penalties as each house may provide.

[krazen1211]

The issue is the quorum and nothing can be passed with out a proper quorum. Until they come back, Walker can't do a thing.

Wrong; they can pass anything non budget related with a 50% quorum.

Time to gerrymander.

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I didn't mention other measures, just the one being discussed here. The Republicans were already going to gerrymander (perhaps dummymander), so the opportunity is any different right now.

Oh, that's just the start. It sounds like they can split the budgetary impact away and simply outlaw teacher tenure for a start.

It makes it much easier to do things when you no longer have to deal with any opposition.

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Outside economists have estimated a large budget deficit over the next 3 years.

http://www.lafollette.wisc.edu/publications/workingpapers/reschovsky2010-016.pdf

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The closed schools are in MADISON. People in Madison aren't going to vote Republican over that.

The people of Madison now have to take off from work to babysit their kids. Have fun.

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If this was about the deficit in Wisconsin, why pass nearly 200 million dollars in tax cuts as one of your first actions in a state with a supposedly critical budget situation? If unions must sacrifice, why not even try to negotiate with them? Why go whole hog and effectively remove the ability for these unions to negotiate and collectively bargain at all? If you're going to take this drastic action, why exempt the three unions that, conveniently, supported your election bid, while taking the knife to everyone else?

The unions never came into this with good faith. That's why, after the Republican shellacking of the Democrats last year, the unions tried to ram through a contract in the lame duck session. They turned on their former Senate Majority Leader when he decided to vote against them.