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Author Topic: State Legislature Redistricting  (Read 13704 times)
JohnnyLongtorso
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« Reply #100 on: June 19, 2011, 08:48:42 pm »
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The Republicans' proposed map doesn't create a black-plurality district in Dover, nor does the existing map have one.
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« Reply #101 on: June 19, 2011, 10:05:39 pm »
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If the maps are based on geographic reasons, there is no argument for any unfairness toward anybody, because no one is being deliberately disenfranchised. There is no racism involved here.

I am completely in favor of getting rid of the VRA and having standards that call for strict, geography based redistricting. The VRA is being heavily misused.
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krazen1211
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« Reply #102 on: June 20, 2011, 12:50:50 am »
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No that's not discernible because there's no advantage to electing white Democrats as opposed to black Democrats. And "packing" Wilmington makes sense simply because Wilmington is one city and there's no reason to carve it up into a million pieces just because that might give another district a better chance of electing a black. If Wilmington can fit into two districts, then why should it be cut into three?

I can't figure out a way to draw a plurality black VAP seat in Dover. The best I can get is 45% white to 43.9% black VAP, it's plurality black in total population but that number isn't taken into account. Why it's split three ways is rather obvious, since Dover is the only town in the area that votes for Democrats, it makes more sense to split it and get three districts capable of electing Democrats instead of one.


The bolded is precisely my question.

You seem to have not looked at the map. Wilmington COULD be a pair of 57% or so black districts that divide the city in half and encompass the entire city and a small number of surrounding precincts.

Instead, they created the following.

1 district with 68% black VAP (that numerous liberals have claimed constitutes 'packing') that covers a portion of Wilmington and goes into Edgemoor and down to New Castle.

A 2nd district that takes a piece of Wilmington and goes up to New Jersey.

A 3rd district with 50.8% black VAP that takes a piece of Wilmington and goes down to Newport.

Certainly curious to have 3 districts touching a city that has the population for 2 districts and not 1 district wholly inside the city.

The black legislative caucus is asking the very valid question as to why that last district was drawn to be only 50.8% VAP when there are surplus blacks in the 2nd district that doesn't need to be entering Wilmington at all.

The proposal for Dover was to clearly split some precincts to collect the numerous black neighborhoods. You can't do that on the app.
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krazen1211
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« Reply #103 on: June 20, 2011, 12:52:47 am »
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If the maps are based on geographic reasons, there is no argument for any unfairness toward anybody, because no one is being deliberately disenfranchised. There is no racism involved here.

I am completely in favor of getting rid of the VRA and having standards that call for strict, geography based redistricting. The VRA is being heavily misused.

Well, then I await the 'geographical' reason for the 3 way split of Wilmington.
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« Reply #104 on: June 20, 2011, 12:55:34 am »
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So you are proposing two majority black seats, which is exactly what the status quo is. Except one happens to be more black than the other which doesn't mean much. The most likely representative from a 60% black VAP district is a black Democrats. Same with a 50% black VAP district. Hell even the case with a 45% black VAP district.

The second district is easily explainable in that it sounds designed to take in Republican or marginal areas and prevent a possible swing district. Pack Wilmington like that and you could end up with something like 2 safe Dem seats and one winnable seat, as opposed to the likely 3 safe Dem seats.

BTW once again if white liberals are all extreme racists who hate blacks more than anyone who did millions support Obama over Hillary?
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krazen1211
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« Reply #105 on: June 20, 2011, 01:17:30 am »
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So you are proposing two majority black seats, which is exactly what the status quo is. Except one happens to be more black than the other which doesn't mean much. The most likely representative from a 60% black VAP district is a black Democrats. Same with a 50% black VAP district. Hell even the case with a 45% black VAP district.

The second district is easily explainable in that it sounds designed to take in Republican or marginal areas and prevent a possible swing district. Pack Wilmington like that and you could end up with something like 2 safe Dem seats and one winnable seat, as opposed to the likely 3 safe Dem seats.

BTW once again if white liberals are all extreme racists who hate blacks more than anyone who did millions support Obama over Hillary?

That answer doesn't really make too much sense, because it they wanted to safeguard that 2nd district (given where it is, it doesn't really need to be), they would have skimmed some of the nonwilmington blacks from the 1st overpacked district, and you would still the remainder of the wilmington blacks for the 3rd district. As it stands, the Delaware Black Caucus has been unable to claim the 3rd district as they are extremely unhappy that it is represented by a white and hence are asking for a much better population distribution.

I wouldn't call anyone racist. There is merely a preference in making sure that whites have the best chance at winning almost all of the seats, as they have succeeded in doing in places like New England. They would not have cracked the San Fernando Valley, for instance, without such a preference. Nor would New Jersey Democrats have parceled the North Area of Hudson County into numerous districts.

Presumably, they like the idea of maximizing their potential job opportunity, and they don't like how many blacks vote on some issues such as homosexuality. But that's why the Delaware Black Caucus is asking the question.

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JohnnyLongtorso
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« Reply #106 on: June 20, 2011, 06:54:38 am »
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Actually, from what I've heard, the Delaware Senate plan doles out favors to the Senate President's friends and allies (there are a couple of Republicans who are given safe seats, while two others are put in tougher seats). Not everything is some grand racist white liberal conspiracy.
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« Reply #107 on: June 20, 2011, 11:16:06 am »
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So you are proposing two majority black seats, which is exactly what the status quo is. Except one happens to be more black than the other which doesn't mean much. The most likely representative from a 60% black VAP district is a black Democrats. Same with a 50% black VAP district. Hell even the case with a 45% black VAP district.

The second district is easily explainable in that it sounds designed to take in Republican or marginal areas and prevent a possible swing district.


So, Democratic partisan considerations come first, and, the interests of Blacks are secondary.

I think that is the jest of Krazen's point: the VRA is being abused by Democratic partisans to further Democratic partisan interests nominally in the name of Black interest, but, only to the extent that Black interest is firmly in line with Democratic interest. When push comes to shove, Black interest is told to take a back seat.



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Pack Wilmington like that and you could end up with something like 2 safe Dem seats and one winnable seat, as opposed to the likely 3 safe Dem seats.

BTW once again if white liberals are all extreme racists who hate blacks more than anyone who did millions support Obama over Hillary?
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« Reply #108 on: June 20, 2011, 11:19:10 am »
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Actually, from what I've heard, the Delaware Senate plan doles out favors to the Senate President's friends and allies (there are a couple of Republicans who are given safe seats, while two others are put in tougher seats). Not everything is some grand racist white liberal conspiracy.

What a minute, redistricting is a conspiracy. That is a given. The only question is whether, or not, that conspiracy is effectively, if not intentionally, racist. The numbers suggest that it is.
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« Reply #109 on: June 20, 2011, 12:47:07 pm »
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Actually, from what I've heard, the Delaware Senate plan doles out favors to the Senate President's friends and allies (there are a couple of Republicans who are given safe seats, while two others are put in tougher seats). Not everything is some grand racist white liberal conspiracy.

And that's exactly what happened in the San Fernando Valley too (where the districts were actually drawn by one of the current reps' brothers form what I understand.) Considering how patronistic and machine-based New Jersey politics are that's likely what happened there.

The funny thing though is this type of blatant nepotism and all that is worthy of criticism as well, so why even go on the ridiculous racist angle?
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BigSkyBob
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« Reply #110 on: June 20, 2011, 01:46:23 pm »
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Actually, from what I've heard, the Delaware Senate plan doles out favors to the Senate President's friends and allies (there are a couple of Republicans who are given safe seats, while two others are put in tougher seats). Not everything is some grand racist white liberal conspiracy.

And that's exactly what happened in the San Fernando Valley too (where the districts were actually drawn by one of the current reps' brothers form what I understand.) Considering how patronistic and machine-based New Jersey politics are that's likely what happened there.

The funny thing though is this type of blatant nepotism and all that is worthy of criticism as well, so why even go on the ridiculous racist angle?


Well, in Texas, the GOP is furthering GOP interest. The response by the Democrats has been accusations of "racism."  Either the charge of "racism" is based on intent, or results. Regardless  of which of the two options you choose, you should apply it equally to both parties.
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krazen1211
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« Reply #111 on: June 20, 2011, 10:36:23 pm »
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Louisiana precleared.

http://www.dailyjournal.net/view/story/f9b272a433524b65a1620d58f33ea9a1/LA-XGR--Louisiana-Redistricting/

The redesign of the Louisiana House's 105 seats received clearance Monday from the U.S. Justice Department, paving the way for fall elections under the new maps and coming despite complaints from black lawmakers that the plan dilutes minority voting strength.



The obvious response, as the GOP has been much better about creating black districts than their Democratic predecessors.
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« Reply #112 on: June 20, 2011, 10:39:25 pm »
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Louisiana precleared.

http://www.dailyjournal.net/view/story/f9b272a433524b65a1620d58f33ea9a1/LA-XGR--Louisiana-Redistricting/

The redesign of the Louisiana House's 105 seats received clearance Monday from the U.S. Justice Department, paving the way for fall elections under the new maps and coming despite complaints from black lawmakers that the plan dilutes minority voting strength.



The obvious response, as the GOP has been much better about creating black districts than their Democratic predecessors.

LOL.
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« Reply #113 on: June 20, 2011, 11:33:57 pm »
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The GOP sure are better, those second VRA congressional districts in Alabama, Louisiana and South Carolina are proof of that. Wait a minute, there are none, because those would be losses and therefore not beneficial.
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krazen1211
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« Reply #114 on: June 20, 2011, 11:47:40 pm »
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The GOP sure are better, those second VRA congressional districts in Alabama, Louisiana and South Carolina are proof of that. Wait a minute, there are none, because those would be losses and therefore not beneficial.

The Democratic party in South Carolina is seeking 0 black districts.

The Democrats created 27 black districts in the last Louisiana map. This one has 29. That sounds terrific doesn't it?
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Bacon King
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« Reply #115 on: June 21, 2011, 01:13:47 am »
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To be fair, the main reason the LA GOP increased the number of black majority districts was to give all their new party switchers whiter districts.

Still, Louisiana passing preclearance on the first attempt is a pretty momentous occasion! I don't know the record for their state legislative redistricting, but I'm fairly certain that LA Congressional redistricting has never passed preclearance on the first try.
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« Reply #116 on: June 21, 2011, 09:40:04 am »
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To be fair, the main reason the LA GOP increased the number of black majority districts was to give all their new party switchers whiter districts.

I have no doubt that GOP partisan interest and maximizing the number of Black seats align. Pointing your finger at the GOP doesn't excuse the Democrats for trying to minimizing the number of Black seats because that is what is in Democratic interest. Such blatant partisanship makes Democratic claims about the moral imperative to create a second Black seat in Lousianna ring hallow.


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Still, Louisiana passing preclearance on the first attempt is a pretty momentous occasion! I don't know the record for their state legislative redistricting, but I'm fairly certain that LA Congressional redistricting has never passed preclearance on the first try.

Since the Lousianna Speaker of the House stated that this is the first time for preclearance of the original map, that's a pretty safe bet.
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« Reply #117 on: June 21, 2011, 12:19:48 pm »
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To be fair, the main reason the LA GOP increased the number of black majority districts was to give all their new party switchers whiter districts.

I have no doubt that GOP partisan interest and maximizing the number of Black seats align. Pointing your finger at the GOP doesn't excuse the Democrats for trying to minimizing the number of Black seats because that is what is in Democratic interest. Such blatant partisanship makes Democratic claims about the moral imperative to create a second Black seat in Lousianna ring hallow.

Of course. Both sides of the aisle are blatant hypocrites, especially on regarding the "principles of redistricting" (for lack of a better term).

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Still, Louisiana passing preclearance on the first attempt is a pretty momentous occasion! I don't know the record for their state legislative redistricting, but I'm fairly certain that LA Congressional redistricting has never passed preclearance on the first try.

Since the Lousianna Speaker of the House stated that this is the first time for preclearance of the original map, that's a pretty safe bet.

Thanks for the info; I thought that was the case but didn't know for certain.
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« Reply #118 on: June 21, 2011, 12:43:10 pm »
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To be fair, the main reason the LA GOP increased the number of black majority districts was to give all their new party switchers whiter districts.

I have no doubt that GOP partisan interest and maximizing the number of Black seats align. Pointing your finger at the GOP doesn't excuse the Democrats for trying to minimizing the number of Black seats because that is what is in Democratic interest. Such blatant partisanship makes Democratic claims about the moral imperative to create a second Black seat in Lousianna ring hallow.

Of course. Both sides of the aisle are blatant hypocrites, especially on regarding the "principles of redistricting" (for lack of a better term).


Whether, one, both or neither  political party is more consistent in one question. Whether one, both, or neither political party is better on creating VRA districts is another question. On the second question, the  facts indicate that the GOP has done a much better job, regardless of motivation.

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Still, Louisiana passing preclearance on the first attempt is a pretty momentous occasion! I don't know the record for their state legislative redistricting, but I'm fairly certain that LA Congressional redistricting has never passed preclearance on the first try.

Since the Lousianna Speaker of the House stated that this is the first time for preclearance of the original map, that's a pretty safe bet.

Thanks for the info; I thought that was the case but didn't know for certain.

Well, I read that fact in the link Krazen provided.
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« Reply #119 on: June 23, 2011, 12:33:36 pm »
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does anyone know what Mike Gronstal's district looks like in Iowa. I really hope he isn't the Tom Daschle of Iowa.
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JohnnyLongtorso
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« Reply #120 on: June 23, 2011, 01:01:24 pm »
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does anyone know what Mike Gronstal's district looks like in Iowa. I really hope he isn't the Tom Daschle of Iowa.

It appears to have been renumbered from SD-50 to SD-08, but is otherwise almost exactly the same district taking in most or all of Council Bluffs.

New map: http://www.legis.iowa.gov/DOCS/Resources/Redist/2011/2011-03-31/SenateStatewide8x11_color.pdf
Old map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iowa_Senate_districts.jpg
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JohnnyLongtorso
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« Reply #121 on: June 23, 2011, 06:40:47 pm »
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Proposed map for the Vermont House of Representatives:

http://vermont-elections.org/2011LABMaps.html

It eliminates all of the two-member districts.
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« Reply #122 on: June 23, 2011, 07:24:22 pm »
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Proposed map for the Vermont House of Representatives:

http://vermont-elections.org/2011LABMaps.html

It eliminates all of the two-member districts.


Interesting. Does this mean they might be changing the crazy multi-member Senate districts?
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JohnnyLongtorso
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« Reply #123 on: June 23, 2011, 08:13:14 pm »
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Proposed map for the Vermont House of Representatives:

http://vermont-elections.org/2011LABMaps.html

It eliminates all of the two-member districts.


Interesting. Does this mean they might be changing the crazy multi-member Senate districts?

It looks like they might be breaking up the bigger districts:

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With half the battle behind them the board stews over what to do with the Senate. How to cut up Chittenden County was the biggest challenge. The board decided to recommend four districts with eight Senate seats.

Burlington and South Burlington will be represented by three senators.

Colchester, Milton, Winooski and all of the Grand Isle county towns will have two seats.

Williston, Essex, Westford, Jericho, Underhill and St. George will have two senators.

Shelburne, Charlotte, Hinesburg, Richmond, and Buel's Gore will be represented by one senator.

This is a big change from the current system which lumps all of Chittenden County into one district with six senators.

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JohnnyLongtorso
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« Reply #124 on: June 24, 2011, 07:58:04 pm »
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This is comical. They're going to have to start over with the Vermont Senate map because...

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But on Friday, the board said its proposed reworking of the Chittenden, Grand Isle and Franklin districts contained an error, yielding 31 senators, instead of 30.

Whoops!
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