MA: The Teaching Salary Act (Debating)

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

The Teaching Salary Act

Section 1
Public education teaching payment shall be based on the following:
30% Education acquired by degree, in any area. The greater amount of degrees and the more advanced degree will result in a higher salary.
35% Years spent teaching in public, private, charter schools, or universities. The longer a teacher has spent teaching, the greater their salary.
30% Regional test score results for their students. The higher the regional test scores the students they teach score, the greater their salary.
5% Former occupation related to teaching. For teachers who have had occupations related to their current teaching (like an engineering now teaching math), they will have a greater salary.

Section 2
The starting teacher salary will be $35,000 annually and will between this amount and $65,000 for any other given year based on Section 1’s formula. The teaching salary will be based on a sliding scale

Section 3
Each year there will be an annual test developed by the education department of the Mideast Government for grades 3-10 in the areas of math, writing, reading, science, and social studies. This regional test will be used to determine the 30% of the salary based on regional testing scores for teachers. Teachers who teach Advanced Placement (AP) or International Baccalaureate (IB) will be scored on student’s results if they teach 11th or 12th grade students whom will not take the regional test due to local district requirements. Scores of the regional test will only affect the teacher teaching in their specific area (an English teacher is only scored on Writing and Reading).

Section 4
Teachers who do not teach a subject related to Math, Writing, Reading, Science, and Social Studies, and/or do not teach an AP or IB class, will not be subject to the 30% teaching salary category based on the regional test scores. Teachers who fall into the Section 4 category will only have the ability to achieve a maximum of $60,000 annually for salary.

Sponsor: A-Bob

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

I for one don't like Section 4.  That'll be one thing I think definitely needs amending.

[shua]

We shouldn't be disincentivising teachers taking on jobs with more academically challenged students.

[Jayhawker]

We shouldn't be disincentivising teachers taking on jobs with more academically challenged students.

I completely agree. Until the section on basing salary on test scores is removed, I strongly urge the Assembly to vote down this legislation.

[A-Bob]

I for one don't like Section 4.  That'll be one thing I think definitely needs amending.

I was just considering how to judge teachers fairly on preformance for say a language or music teacher. Our new Colorado bill ties all teachers in with our overall state testing scores which makes no sense, especially for teachers that have nothing to do with the core subjects, or even judged in english when they teach geometry and statistics.

[A-Bob]

We shouldn't be disincentivising teachers taking on jobs with more academically challenged students.

I completely agree. Until the section on basing salary on test scores is removed, I strongly urge the Assembly to vote down this legislation.

As previously posted, this legislation is not moving to some quick vote

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

I for one don't like Section 4.  That'll be one thing I think definitely needs amending.

I was just considering how to judge teachers fairly on preformance for say a language or music teacher. Our new Colorado bill ties all teachers in with our overall state testing scores which makes no sense, especially for teachers that have nothing to do with the core subjects, or even judged in english when they teach geometry and statistics.

I realize that.  But then limiting pay for non-testable teachers is unfair as well and discourages entry into that field.

[afleitch]

I for one don't like Section 4.  That'll be one thing I think definitely needs amending.

I was just considering how to judge teachers fairly on preformance for say a language or music teacher. Our new Colorado bill ties all teachers in with our overall state testing scores which makes no sense, especially for teachers that have nothing to do with the core subjects, or even judged in english when they teach geometry and statistics.

I realize that.  But then limiting pay for non-testable teachers is unfair as well and discourages entry into that field.

Agreed. It needs to be cut out.

I would also be grateful if anyone has the figures for average starting salary for teachers at the present.

[Badger]

While I'm all for increasing teacher salaries to ensure quality candidates, isn't this a rather top down structure to determine teacher salaries throughout a wide and varied region? As long as we're ensuring adequate minimum salaries for teachers in impoverished areas with small tax bases, shouldn't salaries be left to individual districts?

At least that's what I think a conservative would say.

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

I actually agree with Badger (somewhat).  I've always been a fan of local control when it comes to schools.  I think there need to be some guidelines, and perhaps some provisions on what we'll do if a local school district isn't doing a good job, but for the most part, local school districts are going to know what's working and what isn't.

[A-Bob]

The average overall is 40-43k with the higher end being high school.

http://teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state

As you can see my starting salary is much higher than the average, certainly over 30k! (unless you're in North Dakota where that's decent) in order to encourage people to go into teaching.

Also if you guys have a better idea to get rid of just plan bad teachers, it's fine by me, but I don't want anyone holding our students back because they are just plain bad, whether they can't teach well, or don't know the curriculum. Just like any real world company or organization, there had people who are bad at their job as teachers, and we need to replace them if they strain the system.

[The Artist Formerly Known As and Now Again Known As Ogis]

I'm a little worried that teachers would have no incentive to teach underperforming students. On this scale, a teacher would make less if their students' test scores are lower, but there is only so much he/she can control. It's really difficult to objectively grade teacher performance, and it opens up the system to unnecessary controversy or bureaucracy, depending on the path we choose to take.

[afleitch]

I'm a little worried that teachers would have no incentive to teach underperforming students. On this scale, a teacher would make less if their students' test scores are lower, but there is only so much he/she can control. It's really difficult to objectively grade teacher performance, and it opens up the system to unnecessary controversy or bureaucracy, depending on the path we choose to take.

Agreed. Schools are target driven enough as it is, but many students have low test scores for a variety of reasons. (and not through lack of interest or effort) I must also say as someone born into a teaching family and aware of many of the pressures that they face, that often the root cause of poor discipline, low motivation and other factors begin at home over which a teacher cannot have any control. Local school districts are better placed to manage this; for example some urban areas may have a higher % of kids who essentially act as primary carers which would effect their attendance and concentration.

[Badger]

I'm a little worried that teachers would have no incentive to teach underperforming students. On this scale, a teacher would make less if their students' test scores are lower, but there is only so much he/she can control. It's really difficult to objectively grade teacher performance, and it opens up the system to unnecessary controversy or bureaucracy, depending on the path we choose to take.

Agreed. Schools are target driven enough as it is, but many students have low test scores for a variety of reasons. (and not through lack of interest or effort) I must also say as someone born into a teaching family and aware of many of the pressures that they face, that often the root cause of poor discipline, low motivation and other factors begin at home over which a teacher cannot have any control. Local school districts are better placed to manage this; for example some urban areas may have a higher % of kids who essentially act as primary carers which would effect their attendance and concentration.

Also agreed for the above mentioned points. Standardized testing has its uses, but we need to be encouraging more qualified teachers to work in underperforming districts, not the opposite.

[Is JCL in mushy sappy love]

This would hurt arts programs and not incentivize those good arts teachers as well.

[A-Bob]

I'm a little worried that teachers would have no incentive to teach underperforming students. On this scale, a teacher would make less if their students' test scores are lower, but there is only so much he/she can control. It's really difficult to objectively grade teacher performance, and it opens up the system to unnecessary controversy or bureaucracy, depending on the path we choose to take.

That's the dilemma with this. How do we find ways to get rid of bad teachers (and make sure they're actually bad) while making sure we still have good teachers in bad districts.

Even if we don't tie regional testing to teacher pay, I still think we should use it in order to compare districts, see which ones struggle in what areas so we can work on solutions to getting their scores up in certain (maybe even all) areas.

[shua]

Replacing bad teachers with good teachers is something that we need to enable schools to do. That is not quite the same as basing teacher pay on some measure of performance. 

[A-Bob]

Replacing bad teachers with good teachers is something that we need to enable schools to do. That is not quite the same as basing teacher pay on some measure of performance. 

It's still a step by awarding the best teachers that really produce amazing results and are committed to the kids. Shouldn't they get the highest pay?

[shua]

Replacing bad teachers with good teachers is something that we need to enable schools to do. That is not quite the same as basing teacher pay on some measure of performance. 

It's still a step by awarding the best teachers that really produce amazing results and are committed to the kids. Shouldn't they get the highest pay?

We can aim for that, we just need to recognize there is no surefire way to make sure we know who those teachers are, and any decent system for estimating this is going to require a lot of time and resources with administration at the local level by people who are familiar with each school.

[A-Bob]

Replacing bad teachers with good teachers is something that we need to enable schools to do. That is not quite the same as basing teacher pay on some measure of performance. 

It's still a step by awarding the best teachers that really produce amazing results and are committed to the kids. Shouldn't they get the highest pay?

We can aim for that, we just need to recognize there is no surefire way to make sure we know who those teachers are, and any decent system for estimating this is going to require a lot of time and resources with administration at the local level by people who are familiar with each school.

I agree, but we have to try. I was thinking an alternative could be some evaluation of the teacher where the administration, students, and teachers are interviewed on a specific teacher, they can also look at regional test results, look at the group of kids they had, and bring that all in to perspective. The only downside is a huge chance for corruption  and/or the ability for just a few people to control a teacher's salary or maybe even their job (if of course what the evaluation says doesn't seem right)

[Inks.LWC Supports Chuck Hagel]

Replacing bad teachers with good teachers is something that we need to enable schools to do. That is not quite the same as basing teacher pay on some measure of performance. 

I think first and foremost, we need to make sure that we have good teachers and are getting rid of the bad ones.  But that shouldn't be done by the regional government.  Local administrators can do that best.  We just need to ensure that overall that's what's going on.

[shua]

Replacing bad teachers with good teachers is something that we need to enable schools to do. That is not quite the same as basing teacher pay on some measure of performance. 

I think first and foremost, we need to make sure that we have good teachers and are getting rid of the bad ones.  But that shouldn't be done by the regional government.  Local administrators can do that best.  We just need to ensure that overall that's what's going on.

Yes, I agree, those decisions are best made case by case at the local level - as long as we do not have tenure/seniority or other policies that are getting in the way.

[The Artist Formerly Known As and Now Again Known As Ogis]

I agree with shua and Inks in that it is in the local government's jurisdiction to determine the quality of the teachers.

On another note, I am in favor of instituting a region-wide system implementing "combat pay," where teachers in high-risk, historically low-result neighborhoods are paid more in an attempt to correct the system.

[Swedish Cheese]

I agree with shua and Inks in that it is in the local government's jurisdiction to determine the quality of the teachers.

[A-Bob]

I agree with shua and Inks in that it is in the local government's jurisdiction to determine the quality of the teachers.

On another note, I am in favor of instituting a region-wide system implementing "combat pay," where teachers in high-risk, historically low-result neighborhoods are paid more in an attempt to correct the system.

Great idea