A question for libertarians

[All Along The Watchtower]

When exactly was America "libertarian?" I'll answer: It's never really been.

From the first expansion of the Bill of Rights, to the development of the US Navy, from federal land grants to war veterans and settlers to corporate subsidies and tax breaks during the Industrial Revolution, from the interstate highway system to the public school system, from the New Deal and the federal government's mobilization of the American workforce during WWII to the GI Bill of Rights to the Great Society, and from the endless amounts of friendly regulations, waivers, and subsidies to corporations to this day, the US federal government has been involved from the start, and the more it has been involved, the more progress and development has been made.

Of course, there's a point of diminishing returns. But it's nowhere near as "small" as libertarians claim it is. America, after all, is a nation of over 300 million people. By necessity, government is big.

[John Dibble]

You're kind of new here, so I'll just say it - this style of thread isn't really appreciated in this forum. It's not a question, it's a lecture. Presenting it as anything else is dishonest. I would regard it as a mild form of trolling.

Also, FYI most of the major libertarian posters here are probably not the type you're accustomed to dealing with, so please don't just assume we're all a bunch of ignorant loony fanatics hell bent on ensuring that toddlers have the right to own weaponized anthrax for home defense. Keep that in mind before you try to lecture us, mmmkay?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

The early history of some of the colonies was decidedly libertarian, but such halcyon days never lasted more than a couple of decades.

[Ban my account ffs!]

The early history of some of the colonies was decidedly libertarian, but such halcyon days never lasted more than a couple of decades.

Or even one harsh winter in some cases.

Dibble:  While I understand what you're saying... I think the OP has a point here.  Some libertarians on this forum are exactly as he is implying.  You are the exception.  Don't confuse your own respectful, rational, and generally agreeable nature for the general behavior of libertarians (or anybody else for that matter) on this forum.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

I wouldn't consider the establishment of a Navy or any amendment prior to the 16th to be anti-libertarian. Yes, the 14th amendment has been interpreted in very unlibertarian ways, but in the 19th century it was interpreted to protect property rights.  America has never been some sort of libertarian utopia, but you don't make a very strong case when most of your examples are from the past century.

[Mr. Taft Republican]

The early history of some of the colonies was decidedly libertarian, but such halcyon days never lasted more than a couple of decades.

Or even one harsh winter in some cases.

Dibble:  While I understand what you're saying... I think the OP has a point here.  Some libertarians on this forum are exactly as he is implying.  You are the exception.  Don't confuse your own respectful, rational, and generally agreeable nature for the general behavior of libertarians (or anybody else for that matter) on this forum.

The thread title is still a misnomer, libertarians expecting an honest question had their beliefs downgraded in a long, and boring, rant.

[dead0man]

When exactly was America "libertarian?" I'll answer: It's never really been.

From the first expansion of the Bill of Rights, to the development of the US Navy, from federal land grants to war veterans and settlers to corporate subsidies and tax breaks during the Industrial Revolution, from the interstate highway system to the public school system, from the New Deal and the federal government's mobilization of the American workforce during WWII to the GI Bill of Rights to the Great Society, and from the endless amounts of friendly regulations, waivers, and subsidies to corporations to this day, the US federal government has been involved from the start, and the more it has been involved, the more progress and development has been made.

Of course, there's a point of diminishing returns. But it's nowhere near as "small" as libertarians claim it is. America, after all, is a nation of over 300 million people. By necessity, government is big.

That wasn't much of a question....more like a rant.  I think you may have missed the point when you read How to Win Friends and Influence People.

[John Dibble]

Dibble:  While I understand what you're saying... I think the OP has a point here.  Some libertarians on this forum are exactly as he is implying.  You are the exception.  Don't confuse your own respectful, rational, and generally agreeable nature for the general behavior of libertarians (or anybody else for that matter) on this forum.

I never said he didn't have a point - in fact I'm wondering why he didn't mention that, you know, slavery thing. That's rather decidedly not libertarian and I don't think you could call any nation that has legal slavery libertarian, since "self ownership" is a rather central principle to libertarian philosophy.

Maybe there are some nutters that haven't left or been banned yet, but I'm not really noticing them. My main point was that his style of posting here is in bad taste.

[Antonio the Sixth]

You're kind of new here, so I'll just say it - this style of thread isn't really appreciated in this forum. It's not a question, it's a lecture. Presenting it as anything else is dishonest. I would regard it as a mild form of trolling.

I've no clue where you see a problem with this thread. Yeah, it could be phrased differently, but he raises a valid point about the silliness of some (not all) American libertarians.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

This was true until roughly one year ago, but since Libertas and his buddies colonized the forum it's easy to see where he comes from.

[Gustaf]

You're kind of new here, so I'll just say it - this style of thread isn't really appreciated in this forum. It's not a question, it's a lecture. Presenting it as anything else is dishonest. I would regard it as a mild form of trolling.

I've no clue where you see a problem with this thread. Yeah, it could be phrased differently, but he raises a valid point about the silliness of some (not all) American libertarians.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

This was true until roughly one year ago, but since Libertas and his buddies colonized the forum it's easy to see where he comes from.

It's pretty trolling to start a thread in order to strawman. Had he been saying this in response to a specific poster claiming that the US was once libertarian, it would be one thing but this is out-right silly.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I have the feeling that there are a lot of libertarians, not in this forum but in real life, who express the idea that there was sooo much freedom in the past and then USA has been taken over by evil big government, and we have to take America back from them, etc... So that's how I understood this thread.

[Gustaf]

I have the feeling that there are a lot of libertarians, not in this forum but in real life, who express the idea that there was sooo much freedom in the past and then USA has been taken over by evil big government, and we have to take America back from them, etc... So that's how I understood this thread.

Yeah...but that's a strawman. I have a feeling there are a lot of left-wingers in the world who think Cuba is a free country. Should I start a thread stating that it isn't?

[Antonio the Sixth]

I have the feeling that there are a lot of libertarians, not in this forum but in real life, who express the idea that there was sooo much freedom in the past and then USA has been taken over by evil big government, and we have to take America back from them, etc... So that's how I understood this thread.

Yeah...but that's a strawman. I have a feeling there are a lot of left-wingers in the world who think Cuba is a free country. Should I start a thread stating that it isn't?

It's a strawman if the feeling is wrong. It's not if the feeling is right.

[Mechaman]

I have the feeling that there are a lot of libertarians, not in this forum but in real life, who express the idea that there was sooo much freedom in the past and then USA has been taken over by evil big government, and we have to take America back from them, etc... So that's how I understood this thread.

Yeah...but that's a strawman. I have a feeling there are a lot of left-wingers in the world who think Cuba is a free country. Should I start a thread stating that it isn't?

It's a strawman if the feeling is wrong. It's not if the feeling is right.

How exactly can a feeling be considered "right" or "wrong" anyway?
Feelings are purely subjective.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I have the feeling that there are a lot of libertarians, not in this forum but in real life, who express the idea that there was sooo much freedom in the past and then USA has been taken over by evil big government, and we have to take America back from them, etc... So that's how I understood this thread.

Yeah...but that's a strawman. I have a feeling there are a lot of left-wingers in the world who think Cuba is a free country. Should I start a thread stating that it isn't?

It's a strawman if the feeling is wrong. It's not if the feeling is right.

How exactly can a feeling be considered "right" or "wrong" anyway?
Feelings are purely subjective.

That's why you can't say it's a strawman. A logical fallacy implies dishonesty, which is not the case there.

[Gustaf]

I have the feeling that there are a lot of libertarians, not in this forum but in real life, who express the idea that there was sooo much freedom in the past and then USA has been taken over by evil big government, and we have to take America back from them, etc... So that's how I understood this thread.

Yeah...but that's a strawman. I have a feeling there are a lot of left-wingers in the world who think Cuba is a free country. Should I start a thread stating that it isn't?

It's a strawman if the feeling is wrong. It's not if the feeling is right.

Ok, my feeling is also correct - I've read several such statements by prominent left-wingers in Sweden, for instance.

It's still a strawman, since it's completely out of the blue.

Starting a thread where you just say "obviously wrong opinion X is obviously wrong" is basically trolling. At the very least, you need more than saying "I have a feeling someone thinks this obviously wrong thing"

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

That's why you can't say it's a strawman. A logical fallacy implies dishonesty, which is not the case there.

Many people come by illogic quite honestly.

[John Dibble]

That's why you can't say it's a strawman. A logical fallacy implies dishonesty, which is not the case there.

Many people come by illogic quite honestly.

Quite.

This thread is a strawman because it's basically saying "This is what I say your opinion is regardless of what your opinion actually might be, and this is why it's wrong". That he might honestly believe all libertarians here doesn't change the fallaciousness of it.

This was true until roughly one year ago, but since Libertas and his buddies colonized the forum it's easy to see where he comes from.

Libertas was banned before this guy even joined the forum. I'm not sure who Libertas's buddies are, or even if someone like him even had buddies, or even if they are still around.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Libertas was banned before this guy even joined the forum. I'm not sure who Libertas's buddies are, or even if someone like him even had buddies, or even if they are still around.

Well, you can esteem yourself lucky to never have met wormyguy, Svensson or FallenMorgan.

[angus]

I never said he didn't have a point - in fact I'm wondering why he didn't mention that, you know, slavery thing. That's rather decidedly not libertarian and I don't think you could call any nation that has legal slavery libertarian, since "self ownership" is a rather central principle to libertarian philosophy.

Actually, I've always thought of the agrarian planters as exemplifying libertarianism.  In fact, the best argument for allowing slavery is an economic one, and the Libertarian case for slavery has been made.  See, for example, Edward B. Bryan, Letters to the Southern People, 1858.  Self-ownership applies only to humans.  Not to dogs or horses or slaves.  You have to remember that the constitution did not count slaves as whole men.  This was an expedient compromise between those slave states that wanted more legislative seats and those states with little or no slave population, but the fact that 3/5 of a man was taken seriously suggests that the Framers, whether for or against slavery, didn't reckon the African to be quite fully equal to the Englishman.  Once you get it in your head that someone isn't quite human, then you aren't obliged to apply the principle of self-ownership.  Moreover, the planters spoke in terms of local sovereignty and about being free from a radicalized national government.  This seems very Libertarian to me.

Wherein lies sovereignty?  Democrats and Republicans say The State.  Constitutionalists and Islamists say God.  But Libertarians say The Individual.  If an individual wants to plant for profit, then I think you can argue that planting in a way that maximizes profit is his right.  We're not talking about Roman-style slavery here, or Chinese slavery, in which the slaves were your fellow Han peoples, we're talking about antebellum U.S. slavery, in which the slaves were Africans, and the planters were of European stock.  He can run dogs, horses, and slaves for profit without damaging his fellow man. 

Of course all this requires you to suspend your belief that the African is as human as the European.  A bizarre thought with our modern sensibilities, perhaps, but was it such a bizarre notion to the average Virginian in 1787?  I think it was not.

[opebo]

It is a great thread and it is funny to see the libertarians criticising the OP for 'trolling'.  Fellows, he's just pointing out the weakness and unreality of your political philosophy.  I'd say you aught to accept the challenge rather than hide under the apron-strings, if you're so 'individualistic' and 'standing on your own two feet' and all that malarky.

Of course the US has always been a slave camp, with every aspect of life controlled by the State in order to ensure all toil for the benefit of the owning elite.  Whether this is 'libertarian' or not depends on your definition, but it sure looks like it to me.  Yeah, Freedom! 

[Grumpier Than Thou]

No one ever claimed that America was "libertarian."

Frankly, you should quit ranting about claims that one or two people may have made rather than America's actual libertarians.

By necessity, government is big.

Wrong, Government is big by means of the apathy of Americans.