What should minimum wage be?

[A18]

I think people have the right to work for whatever amount of money they want.

[John Dibble]

I think people have the right to work for whatever amount of money they want.

Ditto. And I think employers have the right to say 'that's too much' and hire someone who's willing to work for less.

[Gabu]

Personally, I think that minimum wage should be whatever is determined to be the bare minimum one can survive on (and, obviously, this implies that it should be left to the states, since this amount would differ for each state).  If a person is relying on the job that he or she has to survive in life, I don't really think that it's fair to the worker to allow the employer to pay the person less than what they can survive off of.

I recognize that it's possible that the market could regulate itself by having competitors pay more than other companies and such, but I still think that it has the potential to be dangerous to eliminate the minimum wage.

[A18]

If it were impossible to survive on a lower wage, those lower wages wouldn't exist anyway, would they?

[David S]

Personally, I think that minimum wage should be whatever is determined to be the bare minimum one can survive on (and, obviously, this implies that it should be left to the states, since this amount would differ for each state).  If a person is relying on the job that he or she has to survive in life, I don't really think that it's fair to the worker to allow the employer to pay the person less than what they can survive off of.

I recognize that it's possible that the market could regulate itself by having competitors pay more than other companies and such, but I still think that it has the potential to be dangerous to eliminate the minimum wage.

In 2003 the poverty limit for a single person under age 65 was $9573.
For a family of two its $12321
For a couple with 6 kids its $30275

http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/threshld/thresh03.html

The minimum wage is $5.15 so if someone works 40 hours per week and 50 weeks per year he would earn $10300 which exceeds the poverty limit. However if that person is married with 6 kids then he needs to make $15.13 to be at the poverty level. Should the employer have to pay his employees based on the size of their family? If so wouldn’t that cause the employers to avoid hiring people with families?

Personally I’m opposed to minimum wage laws but I don’t think it’s all that big of a deal as the law stands now. Last time I checked the local MacDonalds was paying $7.00/ hour so it already exceeds the minimum wage.

[J-Mann]

Personally, I think that minimum wage should be whatever is determined to be the bare minimum one can survive on (and, obviously, this implies that it should be left to the states, since this amount would differ for each state).  If a person is relying on the job that he or she has to survive in life, I don't really think that it's fair to the worker to allow the employer to pay the person less than what they can survive off of.

I recognize that it's possible that the market could regulate itself by having competitors pay more than other companies and such, but I still think that it has the potential to be dangerous to eliminate the minimum wage.

In 2003 the poverty limit for a single person under age 65 was $9573.
For a family of two its $12321
For a couple with 6 kids its $30275

http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/threshld/thresh03.html

The minimum wage is $5.15 so if someone works 40 hours per week and 50 weeks per year he would earn $10300 which exceeds the poverty limit. However if that person is married with 6 kids then he needs to make $15.13 to be at the poverty level. Should the employer have to pay his employees based on the size of their family? If so wouldn’t that cause the employers to avoid hiring people with families?

Personally I’m opposed to minimum wage laws but I don’t think it’s all that big of a deal as the law stands now. Last time I checked the local MacDonalds was paying $7.00/ hour so it already exceeds the minimum wage.

I was trying to do similar math, but you've already done it (and I'm horrible with numbers anyway).  I think the individual wage earner should be able to meet or slightly exceed the poverty level on minimum wage (and taking into account the same 50 week factor that used).  $5.15, then, is about right, with $4.79 being the absolute minimum.

And you're right that many low-paying jobs already exceed minimum wage by a bit.  $7.00 per hour at McDonald's is actually a little surprising, though I work (part time) for the State of Kansas in what is purported to be a minimum wage job.  Yet the state has standards of its own, and I make well above $5.15 an hour.  The first job I ever had - nine years ago - was waiting tables, and it payed $2.80 an hour.  Because I got to keep all of my tips, the employer could pay me basically whatever they wanted.

I can't speak for its constitutionality (there will be good arguments on both sides), but I am glad there is a minimum wage.  There's some merit to letting people work for whatever they're willing to work for, but I think that everyone needs a certain amount of guaranteed wage protection.  This brings even the crappiest, most menial jobs up to a level where at least someone will be willing to do them.

It's sometimes harder to get a job than you'd think, even a minimum wage, part-time job.  I looked for nearly a month last year before finding my current job.  And also, it sucks to be poor.  I resent the financially comfortable who think there shouldn't be a minimum wage, because I've been there when every single nickle helped. 

[Josh/Devilman88]

8.25

[A18]

8.25

Why not make it 18.25?

[David S]

Personally, I think that minimum wage should be whatever is determined to be the bare minimum one can survive on (and, obviously, this implies that it should be left to the states, since this amount would differ for each state).  If a person is relying on the job that he or she has to survive in life, I don't really think that it's fair to the worker to allow the employer to pay the person less than what they can survive off of.

I recognize that it's possible that the market could regulate itself by having competitors pay more than other companies and such, but I still think that it has the potential to be dangerous to eliminate the minimum wage.

In 2003 the poverty limit for a single person under age 65 was $9573.
For a family of two its $12321
For a couple with 6 kids its $30275

http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/threshld/thresh03.html

The minimum wage is $5.15 so if someone works 40 hours per week and 50 weeks per year he would earn $10300 which exceeds the poverty limit. However if that person is married with 6 kids then he needs to make $15.13 to be at the poverty level. Should the employer have to pay his employees based on the size of their family? If so wouldn’t that cause the employers to avoid hiring people with families?

Personally I’m opposed to minimum wage laws but I don’t think it’s all that big of a deal as the law stands now. Last time I checked the local MacDonalds was paying $7.00/ hour so it already exceeds the minimum wage.

I was trying to do similar math, but you've already done it (and I'm horrible with numbers anyway).  I think the individual wage earner should be able to meet or slightly exceed the poverty level on minimum wage (and taking into account the same 50 week factor that used).  $5.15, then, is about right, with $4.79 being the absolute minimum.

And you're right that many low-paying jobs already exceed minimum wage by a bit.  $7.00 per hour at McDonald's is actually a little surprising, though I work (part time) for the State of Kansas in what is purported to be a minimum wage job.  Yet the state has standards of its own, and I make well above $5.15 an hour.  The first job I ever had - nine years ago - was waiting tables, and it payed $2.80 an hour.  Because I got to keep all of my tips, the employer could pay me basically whatever they wanted.

I can't speak for its constitutionality (there will be good arguments on both sides), but I am glad there is a minimum wage.  There's some merit to letting people work for whatever they're willing to work for, but I think that everyone needs a certain amount of guaranteed wage protection.  This brings even the crappiest, most menial jobs up to a level where at least someone will be willing to do them.

It's sometimes harder to get a job than you'd think, even a minimum wage, part-time job.  I looked for nearly a month last year before finding my current job.  And also, it sucks to be poor.  I resent the financially comfortable who think there shouldn't be a minimum wage, because I've been there when every single nickle helped. 

If the minimum wage goes up does that cause other wages to go up too? Is it possible that all wages are driven up which gives everyone more  dollars in their pay check but also pushes up prices so that no one is really ahead in terms of purchasing power?

[J-Mann]

Personally, I think that minimum wage should be whatever is determined to be the bare minimum one can survive on (and, obviously, this implies that it should be left to the states, since this amount would differ for each state).  If a person is relying on the job that he or she has to survive in life, I don't really think that it's fair to the worker to allow the employer to pay the person less than what they can survive off of.

I recognize that it's possible that the market could regulate itself by having competitors pay more than other companies and such, but I still think that it has the potential to be dangerous to eliminate the minimum wage.

In 2003 the poverty limit for a single person under age 65 was $9573.
For a family of two its $12321
For a couple with 6 kids its $30275

http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/threshld/thresh03.html

The minimum wage is $5.15 so if someone works 40 hours per week and 50 weeks per year he would earn $10300 which exceeds the poverty limit. However if that person is married with 6 kids then he needs to make $15.13 to be at the poverty level. Should the employer have to pay his employees based on the size of their family? If so wouldn’t that cause the employers to avoid hiring people with families?

Personally I’m opposed to minimum wage laws but I don’t think it’s all that big of a deal as the law stands now. Last time I checked the local MacDonalds was paying $7.00/ hour so it already exceeds the minimum wage.

I was trying to do similar math, but you've already done it (and I'm horrible with numbers anyway).  I think the individual wage earner should be able to meet or slightly exceed the poverty level on minimum wage (and taking into account the same 50 week factor that used).  $5.15, then, is about right, with $4.79 being the absolute minimum.

And you're right that many low-paying jobs already exceed minimum wage by a bit.  $7.00 per hour at McDonald's is actually a little surprising, though I work (part time) for the State of Kansas in what is purported to be a minimum wage job.  Yet the state has standards of its own, and I make well above $5.15 an hour.  The first job I ever had - nine years ago - was waiting tables, and it payed $2.80 an hour.  Because I got to keep all of my tips, the employer could pay me basically whatever they wanted.

I can't speak for its constitutionality (there will be good arguments on both sides), but I am glad there is a minimum wage.  There's some merit to letting people work for whatever they're willing to work for, but I think that everyone needs a certain amount of guaranteed wage protection.  This brings even the crappiest, most menial jobs up to a level where at least someone will be willing to do them.

It's sometimes harder to get a job than you'd think, even a minimum wage, part-time job.  I looked for nearly a month last year before finding my current job.  And also, it sucks to be poor.  I resent the financially comfortable who think there shouldn't be a minimum wage, because I've been there when every single nickle helped. 

If the minimum wage goes up does that cause other wages to go up too? Is it possible that all wages are driven up which gives everyone more  dollars in their pay check but also pushes up prices so that no one is really ahead in terms of purchasing power?

I'm not advocating raising it.  Where did I say that?  I just think that a sensible base minimum wage is a good idea.  I fully understand what the dangers are of arbitrarily raising the minimum wage, and I don't think at this point it's a good idea.  It should be increased periodically after a cost-of-living review.

[The Duke]

Philip, have you or anyone you know ever earned minimum wage?

[Mikem]

 This brings even the crappiest, most menial jobs up to a level where at least someone will be willing to do them.

It's sometimes harder to get a job than you'd think, even a minimum wage, part-time job.  I looked for nearly a month last year before finding my current job.  And also, it sucks to be poor.  I resent the financially comfortable who think there shouldn't be a minimum wage, because I've been there when every single nickle helped. 

1.  if the job needs to get done and no one will do it for the asking price, then the price will go up until someone will take it.  thats the market at work.

2.  yes it does suck to be poor, but it isnt the government or the employers or societies fault that you are poor, why should all or any of them have to pay for it.  it isnt their fault it is yours.  why do you resent people that dont want to prop you up when you are poor?  I dont want to prop you up out of poverty either through welfare or through higher prices as a result of higher (unnneccesary wages), I could care less.

[Richard]

Philip, have you or anyone you know ever earned minimum wage?

Yes.  Many teenagers work for minimum wage at McDonald's.


There should be no minimum wage.  You're only creating unemployment.  Recognize the right of an employer to set any rate he wants for labor, and the right of an employee to do the same.  If they agree, they make a deal.


There is NO reason why I shouldn't be paid $2 an hour to work as a paramedic.  Right now the government is forcing my employer to pay $7 or so.  I *want* to be paid less!

[Lunar]

8.25

Why not make it 18.25?

Because that would collapse the market?

Just because something is arbitrary, doesn't mean it's a bad idea.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

Philip, have you or anyone you know ever earned minimum wage?

Yes.  Many teenagers work for minimum wage at McDonald's.


There should be no minimum wage.  You're only creating unemployment.  Recognize the right of an employer to set any rate he wants for labor, and the right of an employee to do the same.  If they agree, they make a deal.


There is NO reason why I shouldn't be paid $2 an hour to work as a paramedic.  Right now the government is forcing my employer to pay $7 or so.  I *want* to be paid less!

There is a difference between a teenager working at minimum wage and an adult who had children to support.  I worked for minimum wage as a teenager and didn't mind, because it was all spending money.  But I can't imagine supporting myself on it now, and I don't have a wife or kids.

I think the minimum wage should be about $11.00/hour.   Though I think a very small number of specific industries that tend to employ teenagers (fast food, some retail) should be exempt provided they only pay below-minimum to people who are not required to be self-sufficient.

I don't think anyone in a wealthy nation who is willing to work full time should be forced to live in poverty, no matter how much their labor is actually worth. 

[J-Mann]

 This brings even the crappiest, most menial jobs up to a level where at least someone will be willing to do them.

It's sometimes harder to get a job than you'd think, even a minimum wage, part-time job.  I looked for nearly a month last year before finding my current job.  And also, it sucks to be poor.  I resent the financially comfortable who think there shouldn't be a minimum wage, because I've been there when every single nickle helped. 

1.  if the job needs to get done and no one will do it for the asking price, then the price will go up until someone will take it.  thats the market at work.

2.  yes it does suck to be poor, but it isnt the government or the employers or societies fault that you are poor, why should all or any of them have to pay for it.  it isnt their fault it is yours.  why do you resent people that dont want to prop you up when you are poor?  I dont want to prop you up out of poverty either through welfare or through higher prices as a result of higher (unnneccesary wages), I could care less.

I think there's a difference between whether or not you have an obligation to prop up the poor of society and whether or not you should lend a helping hand.  I'm socially conservative but economically moderate-to-liberal.  This may seem to be a foreign concept to some of you, but I actually want to help the less fortunate.  I do so through a lot of volunteer work, etc., and I also think that there should be a minimum wage that is designed to keep the individual full-time wage earner above the poverty level.  Amazingly enough, it's not always about profit...at least it shouldn't be.

I understand your arguments and even agree with them to a point.  Is it possible that if the minimum wage were abolished that market forces would create a de facto minimum wage at around the same level it is now?  I think that's likely.

[opebo]

I think people have the right to work for whatever amount of money they want.

Of course I agree with this from a purely economic standpoint, but assuming a democratic political system this should be untenable.  One would assume that eventually the working class would be so miserable they would get out and vote to get more money.  So I would say a good balance between the antagonistic systems of capitalism and democracy would be --- $15 an hour.  One really can't live on less anyway, and for the unemployment it caused (if any), just provide a generous welfare state.

[Gustaf]

People who resent minimum wages and the likes are seldom in danger of having to live like the poor people they look down on.

Mikem, what gives you the right to judge other people that way? If you're not in their situation, you shouldn't be so harsh.

I'm sceptical towards the idea of minimum wages, since they should lead to unemployment. I do think the government should support the poor though. Perhaps by a system where you subsidize companies so they can pay somewhat higher wages to those who are less efficient as workers?

[Engineer]

Ooooh, Opebp is weighing in with his expert analysis.

Let's see, minimum wage at $15.00/hr.  That means every business that has minimum wage workers or anybody making less than $15.00/hr will have to raise their prices to cover the cost.  People currently making, say $16.00/hr, will demand (and rightfully so) and raise to $26.00/hr.  Guess what?  We are back to where we were except the proverty level has risen, and now we aren't even remotely competitive in the foreign market, and/or the dollar's value plummets against foreign currency.  Foreign made goods become cheaper, trade deficits rise even more, and US industries close up so unemployment skyrockets.

Gustaf:  subsidize businesses to pay less effecient workers more money?  Reward laziness?  Better rethink your answer.

[John Dibble]

Ooooh, Opebp is weighing in with his expert analysis.

Let's see, minimum wage at $15.00/hr.  That means every business that has minimum wage workers or anybody making less than $15.00/hr will have to raise their prices to cover the cost.  People currently making, say $16.00/hr, will demand (and rightfully so) and raise to $26.00/hr.  Guess what?  We are back to where we were except the proverty level has risen, and now we aren't even remotely competitive in the foreign market, and/or the dollar's value plummets against foreign currency.  Foreign made goods become cheaper, trade deficits rise even more, and US industries close up so unemployment skyrockets.

Indeed. A $15 minimum wage is completely stupid, especially since many people working for less than that are teenagers, and if you made an exception for teenagers you can guess who companies are going to hire if they can. I make $14 an hour at my intern job, which requires more skill and education than that of a burger cook - I damn well better be paid more than a burger cook.

[opebo]

Ooooh, Opebp is weighing in with his expert analysis.

Let's see, minimum wage at $15.00/hr.  That means every business that has minimum wage workers or anybody making less than $15.00/hr will have to raise their prices to cover the cost.  People currently making, say $16.00/hr, will demand (and rightfully so) and raise to $26.00/hr.  Guess what?  We are back to where we were except the proverty level has risen, and now we aren't even remotely competitive in the foreign market, and/or the dollar's value plummets against foreign currency.  Foreign made goods become cheaper, trade deficits rise even more, and US industries close up so unemployment skyrockets.

Indeed. A $15 minimum wage is completely stupid, especially since many people working for less than that are teenagers, and if you made an exception for teenagers you can guess who companies are going to hire if they can. I make $14 an hour at my intern job, which requires more skill and education than that of a burger cook - I damn well better be paid more than a burger cook.

Whether it is stupid or not economically, my point was a political one - that one should expect a generous minimum wage to be enacted under a democratic system of government.  The vast majority of people are working class, and a very large portion of them make subsistence level wages - as in less than $15 an hour.  One would assume they would eventually get tired of this miserable situation and vote in a party that would raise the minimum wage. 

It is true that this hasn't happened recently - which I mostly attribute to religion and the whole patriotism/'moral' intolerance business, but in the long run I can't believe people who have the vote will lie down and accept absurd wages like $7 or $8 an hour.

Alternatively of course, one could eliminate democracy.  But either democracy or capitalism have to be compromised, as they're antagonistic systems.

[danwxman]

Phillip is probably earning minimum wage right now....I remembered when I started out at McDonalds making just above it. I was freaking loaded...because I lived with my parents and I literally had zero expenses. It was great. Now, I have a ton of bills and minimum wage wouldn't even come close to cutting it.

$13.00

[John Dibble]

Ooooh, Opebp is weighing in with his expert analysis.

Let's see, minimum wage at $15.00/hr.  That means every business that has minimum wage workers or anybody making less than $15.00/hr will have to raise their prices to cover the cost.  People currently making, say $16.00/hr, will demand (and rightfully so) and raise to $26.00/hr.  Guess what?  We are back to where we were except the proverty level has risen, and now we aren't even remotely competitive in the foreign market, and/or the dollar's value plummets against foreign currency.  Foreign made goods become cheaper, trade deficits rise even more, and US industries close up so unemployment skyrockets.

Indeed. A $15 minimum wage is completely stupid, especially since many people working for less than that are teenagers, and if you made an exception for teenagers you can guess who companies are going to hire if they can. I make $14 an hour at my intern job, which requires more skill and education than that of a burger cook - I damn well better be paid more than a burger cook.

Whether it is stupid or not economically, my point was a political one - that one should expect a generous minimum wage to be enacted under a democratic system of government.  The vast majority of people are working class, and a very large portion of them make subsistence level wages - as in less than $15 an hour.  One would assume they would eventually get tired of this miserable situation and vote in a party that would raise the minimum wage. 

It is true that this hasn't happened recently - which I mostly attribute to religion and the whole patriotism/'moral' intolerance business, but in the long run I can't believe people who have the vote will lie down and accept absurd wages like $7 or $8 an hour.

Alternatively of course, one could eliminate democracy.  But either democracy or capitalism have to be compromised, as they're antagonistic systems.

Well, you do realize we do not live in a true democracy. We are fortunately, thanks to the founders' wisdom, a republic with elected officials. Yes, the majority might make less than $15 an hour, but you also must consider that a good deal of people don't vote(~40% this year, right?) - those who are more educated and well off have a higher probability of going to vote than those who are ignorant or poor. Back on representatives - while some representatives are dumb, the majority still is more educated than the general public, and therefore have a better understanding of the economic situation. So the likeliness of a minimum wage that is that high is not great under the current system.

Also, I notice the term 'miserable situation'. You assume just because they don't make a lot of money that they are miserable - a basic psychology course would tell you you are wrong. The happiness levels of the rich and the poor are generally the same, with the exception of only those who are the worst off and can not even get the basic needs of food and shelter(which the majority of working class people do get).


Now, on the idea that minimum wage causes unemployment - this is true depending on the level it is at. $5.15 with the current value of the dollar does not really cause unemployment, and most employers will pay more anyways. A level of $15, or even $10 would likely cause unemployment - either that or inflation due to rise in prices. Most companies will sell as cheap as possible, but if they make a loss they must cut costs or raise prices - lay off employees or make prices higher. Either way, a high minimum wage has the opposite effect as intended - people without jobs become destitute, or prices are raised so that everyone is worse off until the wage/salary market evens out, and even after it evens out you are right back back where you started - the minimum wage is not liveable anymore.

[Democratic Hawk]

Personally, I think that minimum wage should be whatever is determined to be the bare minimum one can survive on (and, obviously, this implies that it should be left to the states, since this amount would differ for each state).  If a person is relying on the job that he or she has to survive in life, I don't really think that it's fair to the worker to allow the employer to pay the person less than what they can survive off of.

I recognize that it's possible that the market could regulate itself by having competitors pay more than other companies and such, but I still think that it has the potential to be dangerous to eliminate the minimum wage.

I agree

Dave

[David S]

How many of you folks who support a higher minimum wage would be willing to kick in the additional amount from your own pocket? Its easy to be generous when you're spending someone else's money. But imagine being a small business owner who is just barely getting by. Then imagine a law being passed which says that you have to pay your employee $15.00 per hour ($30,000 per year) plus pay a couple of grand a year for his social security. To make things even less fair you have to pay all of your own social security. You have no employer to pay half of it for you. You could end up paying your employee more than you make, and you end up with all the headaches and all of the risk. How fair is that?