Austrian bakery sells Nazi-cakes, owner faces prison

[Bacon King]

The year before the Austria-Germany Anschluss, around 170,000 Jewish people lived in Vienna: a tenth of the city's population. About half of them were able to escape and emigrate elsewhere (though some, to other nations the Nazis later invaded). The rest were captured within Austria- and over 60,000 of these people were systematically killed in death camps. These events are still within living memory for many, including those who lost loved ones and some- like the group pressing charges here- who were almost killed themselves.

This perspective is important; within Austria those who display the Nazi swastika do so knowing full well that it evokes memories of this genocide. In a former Nazi country someone using the swastika (in a non-educational setting) is, if not openly supporting genocide, still displaying an utter lack of regard and concern for the millions that were massacred.

I am a social libertarian, and I support free speech; however in the perspective of Austria's history the display of the swastika isn't free speech at all- it's hateful obscenity to the worst degree.

Now, this isn't an argument about the specifics of this case because it does seem to be a bit of a gray area. However, my point is that anti-Nazi laws aren't "fascist" like some of you in this thread claim. Earlier in this thread, someone compared the swastika in Europe to the old Confederate flag in the United States; that's not a real comparison at all. Imagine that, hypothetically, the Confederacy had wanted to exterminate the black race and managed to kill about two-thirds of African Americans in the South before the end of the Civil War. Do you really think in that situation it'd just be a matter of free speech for someone to proudly display a Confederate flag in their window?

[ag]

Imagine that, hypothetically, the Confederacy had wanted to exterminate the black race and managed to kill about two-thirds of African Americans in the South before the end of the Civil War. Do you really think in that situation it'd just be a matter of free speech for someone to proudly display a Confederate flag in their window?

As Confederacy and its predecessors did want to (and did) things not that much preferable to extermination (the trafic of slaves to the New World is, arguably, a comparable evil) , I'd say: yes, it is a matter of free speech that any idiot is allowed to display that flag. It's also the matter of free speech that Commies are allowed to show their symbols - they exterminated quite a few people as well, didn't they?

[ag]

Apparently, this bakery had this in a brochure. Completely public.

I appreciate your frank opinion that speech should only be protected, when it is private. I guess, you'd be ok w/ this, if he only served this cake to his wife in their private kitchen. Would it be ok if he also let his mistress taste it, or would that be too public?

[Ban my account ffs!]

I don't condone what the guy was doing... but he has the right to make whatever kind of cake he damn well pleases... and in any shape he wants.

But just like a southern White flying the rebel flag is seen by many as an affront to the black community... he has the right to fly it.  And I'd say if any community comes close to what the Jews went through, it was the slaves.

But I think that's the American perspective and Europeans have a tough time understanding it.  Freedom of expression is sacrosanct, for better or for worse.  (except when it isn't, which is a travesty)

Also:  The fact that I can find Mein Kampf at the local bookstore here while owning the book is a crime in Germany and Austria (as far as I remember) says a lot.  Those who would just as soon forget history are doomed to repeat it... and I see a lot of attempts to simply forget the Holocaust among Germans.  If I were in charge.. I'd make every kid read the book... spend large chunks of the school year learning about Hitler.. how f**ked up he was, how his cult of personality led to genocide... to admit that the whole affair was a defining moment of our history, for better or worse, learn from it, and move forward.  Instead you mention Hitler in a room full of Germans and you can cut through the awkwardness with a chainsaw.

Fact is that here in Austria WW2 is often not really discussed in school, at least it was the case when I was in school from 5th to 8th grade.

In our history classes, we started from past to present, as was the case in the books that we had. In 5th grade we learned about evolution, stone age, etc. then 6th grade I think about ancient Greece and Rome and the Middle Ages, 100 years war etc. 7th grade about Columbus who found America, 30 years war, reformation in Europe, Austria-Hungary.

Then in 8th grade I think we started with the developing industry in America and Europe and about the American and French Revolution, but because the year was almost over, the teacher stopped after WW1.

...

The fact that I know a lot about WW2 is because I went to a higher school after middle school, which 50% of Austrian kids are NOT doing. They have 8 years of school with a final labor-oriented year and then start to work as apprentice in some company.

That's also the reason why the FPÖ is so strong among young apprentices. They have almost no clue about modern history (1900-2011). Just recently we got new apprentices in our company incl. a few 15/16 year old girls. When I talked to 1 of them about September 11, she didn't even knew that happened on this date.

It's a much different experience here... at least it was for me.  I had world history in 7th and 10th grade.  The 2nd quarter of world history in 10th grade, which is supposed to cover 1700-present, was spent mostly on WWI and especially WWII.  I actually had an excellent teacher for the class... he was a history nut for the 1914-1945 period... so we had vets come to our class and he did all of these incredibly immersive powerpoint presentations (hey.. it was 2001).

And he didn't present it in a black and white "America.. f**k yeah... Germany is EVUL!" kinda way... but more of a factual "the roadwork was in place for WWII as soon as WWI ended" kinda way. 

This is why I think Americans come across as so dumb.  We spend a lot of time on social studies.  Americans don't like to remember facts that are not relevant to them.  Language skills, math skills, science skills, and practical skills are easier remembered and are more useful to everyday life... and yet most schools in the U.S. require four years of english and social studies in high school and only 2 or 3 years of math and science.

What does an international survey firm care about Americans knowing their obscure Victorian era facts... they wanna know what Americans know about geometry and calculus and biology and chemistry... subjects that are internationally standardized.

[Gustaf]

Apparently, this bakery had this in a brochure. Completely public.

I appreciate your frank opinion that speech should only be protected, when it is private. I guess, you'd be ok w/ this, if he only served this cake to his wife in their private kitchen. Would it be ok if he also let his mistress taste it, or would that be too public?

I'm not going to bother with repeating that I don't favour the ban of Nazi symbols, since you never seem particularly interested in what people debating you actually think.

If I can strawman you back though, I'll say that I appreciate your frank opinion that Hitler was right about the Jews. I can play the silly game of making up positions for someone too, you see.

[ag]

1. If you don't advocate a ban of Nazi symbols, what are you advocating? Should this guy be prosecuted or not? If not, then I don't see what was all this discussion about: you could have made that point in 7 words. If yes, and he should not be free to say publically whatever the hateful bullsh**t he'd like to publicize, you are advocating a ban. Choose one or the other, please.

2. I am afraid, that the point here is, that I am not longer sure that you indeed fundamentally disagree w/, say,  Hitler on freedom of speech and democracy. And I am not making this as a stupid game: it is just that I increasingly see ideological totalitarianism in your publically stated views, be it on freedom of speech, or on treatment of minorities.

[Insula Dei]

On the WWII and education part of this thread:

In my own school experience we didn't spend too much time on WWII and the Holocaust in History class. This was partly because our teacher for the last year of 'Highschool' wasn't very interested in actually teaching the pre-approved material (Great guy though, knew a lot about graphic novels and obscure Metal acts and often would just put up an Internet documentary about the approaching apocalypse rather than teach), partly because we were supposed to cover that ground in Religion class (which was more of a 'Heavy problems' class also covering homosexuality or AIDS,...) or part of it in every year from primary school onwards.

We did spend a lot of time on WWI and did make the obligatory 'In Flanders fields' excursion. Honestly if you're a Flemish schoolkid who went trough 12 years of education and you can't recite the poem (or some of Siegfried Sassoon's better work), something went horribly wrong.

Of course the Holocaust is a theme that is never far away in pop culture, with the second chain of the public broadcaster often jokingly referred to as the 'WWII channel'. I imagine that many of the posters here calling a ban on Nazi symbolism 'fascism' never really have has experience with wath the Holocaust actually means. I don't think anyone not functionally retarded in Flanders doesn't know about, say, the camp at Breendonk. The collaboration of course is another issue.

[Insula Dei]

Oh, and BK's post here captures entirely what this is about if you ask me. Very simple point, really.

[Gustaf]

1. If you don't advocate a ban of Nazi symbols, what are you advocating? Should this guy be prosecuted or not? If not, then I don't see what was all this discussion about: you could have made that point in 7 words. If yes, and he should not be free to say publically whatever the hateful bullsh**t he'd like to publicize, you are advocating a ban. Choose one or the other, please.

2. I am afraid, that the point here is, that I am not longer sure that you indeed fundamentally disagree w/, say,  Hitler on freedom of speech and democracy. And I am not making this as a stupid game: it is just that I increasingly see ideological totalitarianism in your publically stated views, be it on freedom of speech, or on treatment of minorities.

1. I believe I did make my point in rather few words the first time around. Which was basically that too many people on here were too busy putting this issue in their ideological box to see what was interesting about the case. Turns out you were all to busy staying in the box to listen to what I was saying. The problem is that just like last time we debated something you seem to prefer ignoring what I say. For instance, I've stated 2 or 3 times that I do not advocate the ban of Nazi symbols, yet you are still accusing me of it.

2. Lol. You're accusing me of being Hitler again? It's not a particularly strong debate tactic to equate your opponent on every issue which arises with Adolf Hitler, though I must admit that it's impressive to manage to do so on this one. I guess I'll retort by asking if you're a libertarian?

[ag]

2. I am not accusing you of being Hitler - you used that name first, if I recall correctly. What I am saying is, that your views are quite illiberal. You are, obviously, no Hitler. But voting for some sort of nasties, that would later turn out to be abominable, might come naturally: you don't have much immunity against such views.

1. You've said many things once again, but I still don't understand what is it that you are saying. It seems something like: Nazi symbols shouldn't be banned - but the government should do something about this guy. What?

I have a strong feeling you are a bit afraid of yourself, of your own intolerance. "Something should be done about what I think is evil - but let me not specify what, because that doesn't smell good". Try being honest with yourself.

[Gustaf]

2. I am not accusing you of being Hitler - you used that name first, if I recall correctly. What I am saying is, that your views are quite illiberal. You are, obviously, no Hitler. But voting for some sort of nasties, that would later turn out to be abominable, might come naturally: you don't have much immunity against such views.

1. You've said many things once again, but I still don't understand what is it that you are saying. It seems something like: Nazi symbols shouldn't be banned - but the government should do something about this guy. What?

I have a strong feeling you are a bit afraid of yourself, of your own intolerance. "Something should be done about what I think is evil - but let me not specify what, because that doesn't smell good". Try being honest with yourself.

I'm curious - do you think there is any way one can disagree with your position and still be a liberal democrat? Or is the world eternally divided into crypto-Nazis and people who agree with you?

I used Hitler sarcastically, because I was predicting you would equate me with Hitler once again. Turns out I was more right than I thought.

And I think I'm a lot less intolerant than you are, to be honest. I don't feel the need to label everyone who disagrees with me on every issue as an evil person secretly wanting a new Third Reich. And there is nothing in my views I'm afraid of. That's why I can listen to the opinions of arguments of others without resorting to petty insinuations and ad hominems about what their "real" views are.

For example, I would not typically accuse someone of wanting to ban Nazi symbols if they explicitly said they didn't. Or, for that matter, claiming that someone thinks the government should do something about someone when I never said anything like that.

Once you demonstrate a willingness to actually listen to what I'm saying and not just look for ways of twisting my words to allow you to label me a Nazi I'd be happy to explain my position. But I'm afraid your track record in that department isn't particularly good. If all you want out of the discussion is to say I want a second Hitler, then there isn't really much left, is there?

[opebo]

Good to see that they're still fascist down in Austria.

How are Nazi cakes freedom of speech? They're not.

Surely they meant Austria is still fascist because someone tried to sell Nazi-cakes and someone bought them?  They can't have meant they were fascist for jailing this Nazi?

In all seriousness, gentlemen, a sizable minority of Austrians (probably much higher than Germans, though the phenomenon exists there to in significant numbers) do support fascist or Nazi policies.  Heck such sentiments are not uncommon in America.  Given this dangerous situation, your insistence on insipid and meaningless 'free speech rights' is like worrying about a stain on your sofa while your house is burning down.

[Phony Moderate]

This thread is further proof that Libertarianism is a horrid joke.

[John Dibble]

This thread is further proof that Libertarianism is a horrid joke.

Why? Because we think punishing someone for making an offensive cake isn't justified?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

you cannot stamp out an ideology by banning its symbols.

[Phony Moderate]

So the Nazi Party is still in power in Germany?

[John Dibble]

So the Nazi Party is still in power in Germany?

No. But there are still those who espouse the ideology regardless of any bans on doing so.

[Antonio the Sixth]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

*facepalm*

You must be logged in to read this quote.

*triple facepalm*


What a pathetic story.

[Tender Branson]

'Nazi' pie maker gets death threats

A confectioner has received murder threats for offering cakes showing banned Nazi propaganda symbols and slogans.

The Austrian Mauthausen Committee (MKÖ) – a Holocaust awareness group – informed police and prosecutors about Manfred Klaschka’s controversial business activities earlier this week. The MKÖ was tipped off by horrified customers of the confectioner. A catalogue of previously created products on display at his shop in Maria Enzersdorf, Lower Austria, includes a cake with swastika icing and a pie on which an uniformed arm bursts through to give the Hitler salute.

Klaschka has been threatened with murder in several anonymous postings on various internet discussion platforms since the story broke.

"People are calling me a Nazi swine on the phone. I’m not a fan of (late Third Reich dictator Adolf) Hitler," he said today (Fri).

The confectioner added: "I made these cakes eight years ago. I don’t know what’s so special about fulfilling extraordinary requests of customers."

Klaschka infuriated anti-Nazi mindset activists, politicians, non-government organisations (NGO) and readers all over the world earlier this week by arguing:  "It’s impossible for me to trace back who ordered the cakes in question as they were requested by walk-in customers around eight or nine years ago. Furthermore, and this applies to all trades: the customer is always right!"

He was also quoted as saying: "If someone orders it, I’ll create a pie showing (Libyan leader Muammar al-) Gaddafi."

Spreading Nazi propaganda is a breach of law in Austria. The country’s juridical framework also prohibits the possession and trade of any kind of objects depicting symbols associated with Nazi Germany. The number of violations of this section of the federal law rose by 39.5 per cent from 2009 to 2010 to 741.

http://austrianindependent.com/news/General_News/2011-04-08/7062/%27Nazi%27_pie_maker_gets_death_threats

[J. J.]

The country’s juridical framework also prohibits the possession and trade of any kind of objects depicting symbols associated with Nazi Germany. The number of violations of this section of the federal law rose by 39.5 per cent from 2009 to 2010 to 741.

http://austrianindependent.com/news/General_News/2011-04-08/7062/%27Nazi%27_pie_maker_gets_death_threats

Does this mean all natural blonds have to dye their hair?

[Gustaf]

'Nazi' pie maker gets death threats

A confectioner has received murder threats for offering cakes showing banned Nazi propaganda symbols and slogans.

The Austrian Mauthausen Committee (MKÖ) – a Holocaust awareness group – informed police and prosecutors about Manfred Klaschka’s controversial business activities earlier this week. The MKÖ was tipped off by horrified customers of the confectioner. A catalogue of previously created products on display at his shop in Maria Enzersdorf, Lower Austria, includes a cake with swastika icing and a pie on which an uniformed arm bursts through to give the Hitler salute.

Klaschka has been threatened with murder in several anonymous postings on various internet discussion platforms since the story broke.

"People are calling me a Nazi swine on the phone. I’m not a fan of (late Third Reich dictator Adolf) Hitler," he said today (Fri).

The confectioner added: "I made these cakes eight years ago. I don’t know what’s so special about fulfilling extraordinary requests of customers."

Klaschka infuriated anti-Nazi mindset activists, politicians, non-government organisations (NGO) and readers all over the world earlier this week by arguing:  "It’s impossible for me to trace back who ordered the cakes in question as they were requested by walk-in customers around eight or nine years ago. Furthermore, and this applies to all trades: the customer is always right!"

He was also quoted as saying: "If someone orders it, I’ll create a pie showing (Libyan leader Muammar al-) Gaddafi."

Spreading Nazi propaganda is a breach of law in Austria. The country’s juridical framework also prohibits the possession and trade of any kind of objects depicting symbols associated with Nazi Germany. The number of violations of this section of the federal law rose by 39.5 per cent from 2009 to 2010 to 741.

http://austrianindependent.com/news/General_News/2011-04-08/7062/%27Nazi%27_pie_maker_gets_death_threats

I like the late Third Reich dictator bit. If one doesn't know who Hitler is how would the Third Reich be any help?