The Let’s Make This Official Because... (Vetoed)

[Badger]

Are we through in those places? Do we still have troops there?

Interesting question I've often asked without answer, until PiT stepped up recently. The apparent answer seems to be "yes". See thread below.

https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=125947.msg2850711#msg2850711

The GM's Office considers military activity in both countries to be equivalent to RL at the current moment. Passage of this bill would essentially require immediate pull out of all Atlasian military personnel within 90 days (technically it doesn't even allow that, but I assume the Senate will at least allocate sufficient funds to finance the withdrawl. Otherwise troops may have to find the best Greyhound route back from Basra and Baghdad. )

[Badger]

NAY!!!!!!!

When, I ask again, did we stop being involved in these wars? There is NO RECORD of any such action being taken. If we are going to do such now, let's at least have an honest debate about it and not just pretend we are no longer involved.

HOLY $H%T!!! Did I EVER miss this one during the last week!

Shua is absolutely right! There is NO RECORD WHATSOEVER that Atlasia ever ended involvement in the Iraq or Afghanistan wars. I've pointed this out for close to a year now.

The war goes on, folks. This bill, if signed, means Atlasia has just adopted the Dennis Kucinich platform for both wars---"Total military withdrawl within 90 days".

Foreign policy ramifications---major ones---to follow.

[Badger]

This forces me to conclude that we have actually been there the whole time, but nobody in the last 3-4 years has done anything about it.

Bingo.

Until then, I hate to say it, but the experts are hopelessly divided. Just like real life. Some say that there needs to be a military stabilizing force until Iraqi and Afghani domestic forces are strong enough to defend their governments; others say the governments are too corrupt and unpopular to garner domestic support and any further investment in revenue and blood is putting good money (and lives) after bad.

Do you want another Vietnam by staying? Do you want another Al-Queda haven to plan the next chemical or nuclear 9/11 when Afghanistan's government falls?  No easy answer here at all.

[Badger]

Guys, I don't know how to make this more plain: It is the firm view of the GM's Office that, while debate and interest in the Iraq and Afghan Wars may've wained in Atlasia during recent years, there is simply not compelling evidence--or even much evidence period--that the government ever withdrew from or "won" either military conflict.

Only several months after some Wiki articles touting some limited success, this bill was passed appropriating $80 Billion for continued operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. From the Senate debate its clear this was done to expand the military to avoid it being overstretched by both wars; no indication of a prompt troop drawndown was made. If anything it suggested the opposite. Also, "improvements" in early 2005 is relative to the time period. Such described "improvement" from the hottest period of the war would at best lead to a current RL situation where military action is greatly reduced from that period, but by NO means over; but to draw a conclusion from these old articles that we've "won" the war is farfetched and unrealistic.

Simply put, folks, you can end direct military involvement in either/both wars as theroughly/partially and expeditiously/cautiously as you wish. But simply willing both wars out of existence simply isn't an option. The wars continue on at the same rate as current RL until when/if you guys say otherwise.

Besides, what's all the fuss? We all WANTED more involvement and debate in foreign affairs, right? This is the perfect opportunity, and MUCH more realistic than making up the war ended years ago.