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|-+  Presidential Elections - Analysis and Discussion
| |-+  U.S. Presidential Election Results
| | |-+  2004 U.S. Presidential Election Results (Moderator: True Federalist)
| | | |-+  What was stolen?
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Poll
Question: Which was stolen?  Ukraine/ FL 2000 / OH 2004
no/no/no   -2 (3.1%)
no/no/yes   -0 (0%)
no/yes/no   -1 (1.6%)
no/yes/yes   -0 (0%)
yes/no/no   -36 (56.3%)
yes/no/yes   -1 (1.6%)
yes/yes/no   -15 (23.4%)
yes/yes/yes   -9 (14.1%)
Show Pie Chart
Total Voters: 61

Author Topic: What was stolen?  (Read 3965 times)
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jfern
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« on: December 03, 2004, 07:28:41 pm »
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I say all 3
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A18
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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2004, 07:30:51 pm »
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Freedomburns is not online. Who's the other hack that votes all three? I've got to get your name down on my list.
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A18
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2004, 07:35:15 pm »
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Quit being stupid cowards and post. Now we know there are at least four nuts who believe Ohio was stolen.
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Andrew
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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2004, 11:01:29 pm »
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I vote maybe/yes/maybe.

I haven't followed the Ukraine story enough to say.  I've followed the Ohio story closely enough to want to see more.
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Sam Spade
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« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2004, 11:17:13 pm »
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This thread is officially being labeled "Kook Central" for all future posters.
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Grad Students are the Worst
Alcon
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2004, 12:00:07 am »
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Ukraine: I honestly have not tracked this much. However, it has not yet resolved...making it hard to say whether it was stolen or not. So maybe.

Florida: Stolen? Nah, but it was darn close. I vote maybe, but I don't really think there was any intentional theft.

Ohio: Oh, yeah, three percent of the ballots were totally fraud! Come on, folks. Get over it. No.

I voted No/No/No.
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n/c
Redefeatbush04
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« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2004, 12:05:50 am »
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Yes Yes No
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Man is by nature a political animal - Aristotle
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jfern
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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2004, 12:07:53 am »
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Wow, only one no on the Ukraine?
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King
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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2004, 02:07:26 am »
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Yes, Yes, No
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jfern
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« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2004, 03:04:23 am »
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Quit being stupid cowards and post. Now we know there are at least four nuts who believe Ohio was stolen.

And plenty more who believe FL was stolen in 2000.
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Judischen Volksfront
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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2004, 05:02:06 am »
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Yes, yes, no

Ukraine-Yushenko would not be organizing strikes if the election was fair

Florida-You haven't heard of the s*itty voting machines?

Ohio-There was definitely some stealing, but not enough to flip the state. There were not many polls with Kerry ahead there in the final days of the campaign.
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Hitchabrut
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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2004, 10:13:25 am »
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Yes/No/No
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Brace yourselves for me.

Economic Left/Right: 7.05
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.67
KEmperor
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« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2004, 10:14:52 am »
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Your sense of reality.
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opebo
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« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2004, 12:46:15 pm »
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The first two definitely, the third only in a larger sense.
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Jake
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« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2004, 02:32:07 pm »
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Ukraine-Yes, Obviously something happened and Yuschenko wouldn't be doing this if there wasn't stealing.

Florida-Possibly, but both sides tried to cheat to gain an advantage.  After all votes were counted, I don't know.

Ohio-No, some ambiguities, but I bet if you tried, you could find weird results and uncounted votes in every state.
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dazzleman
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« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2004, 02:46:02 pm »
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Yes/No/No

Ukraine was stolen with massive fraud.

Florida 2000 was riddled with the type of errors that plague every election, and the effect of these errors was magnified by the closeness.  But I don't believe there was intentional theft.

Ohio 2004 - If you're claiming theft there, you live in a fantasy world.

It occurred to me this election that the system's greatest weakness - its disorganization and decentralization, which allows for small-time fraud to occur - is also its greatest strength in that it makes it very difficult to perpetrate a large-scale, coordinated fraud of the type that appears to have happened in Ukraine.
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Passing Through a Screen Door
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« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2004, 03:16:53 pm »
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yes, yes, no
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01/05/2004-01/10/2014
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« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2004, 03:28:23 pm »
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Yes/Yes/No without a doubt.
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Sibboleth Bist
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« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2004, 03:33:18 pm »
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Yes/Probably/There was certainly fraud (by both sides) but the burden of proof is on the accuser. So No.
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Nation
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« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2004, 04:18:29 pm »
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Whichever side won in 2000, it would have been done by fraud. The Republicans happened to win, but if the Dems had gotten a chance to guarantee themselves a win (even if through illegal methods) they would have.

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i dont know, but i've been told
that a yankee politician ain't got no soul
Sibboleth Bist
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« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2004, 04:29:53 pm »
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Whichever side won in 2000, it would have been done by fraud. The Republicans happened to win, but if the Dems had gotten a chance to guarantee themselves a win (even if through illegal methods) they would have.



True. Both sides commit fraud... I think it's probable that a Senate or House race or two may have been stolen this year (both sides will have tried in a few) and I can say with absolute certainty that some State Senate/State House seats were stolen (again by both sides)... and it's probably true that both sides stole a state or three in the Presidential election.
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Huckleberry Finn
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« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2004, 07:25:34 pm »
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Yes/No/No!

Jfern. Why Ohio would have been stolen? Why not Iowa, New Mexico, Nevada.

Because those states haven't enough electoral votes. Oh, it should have been Ohio! Maybe Kerry got 72 percent of all votes? You live in dictatorship.

Oh and Clinton lied about his love affairs during the 92 presidential campaign.
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I live in Finland. I vote Conservatives (National Coalition Party) in Finnish elections, but consider myself as moderate Democrat in the USA.

In New York for the purpose of Fantasy Elections.
Sibboleth Bist
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« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2004, 04:56:46 am »
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New Mexico 

Whoever wins NM has stolen it. In New Mexico "clean elections" are an urban myth...
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Platypus
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« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2004, 07:26:24 am »
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Yes Yes No

Agreed.

And to anyone who says Ukraine wasn't solen, I misquote Al-101% and 98% in two eastern districts=impossible and cheating.
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dazzleman
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« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2004, 11:27:34 am »
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Whichever side won in 2000, it would have been done by fraud. The Republicans happened to win, but if the Dems had gotten a chance to guarantee themselves a win (even if through illegal methods) they would have.



I think both sides commit some fraud at a relatively low level.  Honestly, I think Democrats have been much more effective at perpetrating vote fraud because they tend to control things in centralized urban areas with a lot of votes, while Republican strength tends to be spread across a large number of suburban/rural jurisdictions, and major fraud by Republicans would require a great deal more coordination among different parties than would major fraud by the Democrats.

In addition, virtually all the places with reputations for major vote fraud (i.e., Chicago) are under iron-fisted Democratic control.

As far as Florida 2000 is concerned, it was such a confused mess that any number of things contributed to it.  The networks calling the state for Gore while the heavily Republican panhandle was still voting surely depressed the Bush vote.  Gore's vote was most likely depressed by the Palm Beach County ballot.  There were many other things I'm sure, some small scale fraud by both sides and some screwups.

What I found most funny that not a single Republican that I ever heard of came forward to claim he/she intended to vote for Bush, but made a mistake.  Could that be possible?  My theory is that Democratic voters are trained to blame everybody but themselves for their mistakes, and therefore came out blaming a conspiracy (by a Democratic county-level political hack) for their incorrect vote.  A Republican would be embarrassed to admit that he/she was too stupid to figure out how to vote right, and shut up about it.

Gore's team definitely created the impression that they were trying to steal the election by calling for recounts only in heavily Democratic counties.

Nation, you are absolutely correct that the Democrats would have been only too happy to win through fraud if they could have.  Probably the Republicans too, but I don't think that's what won the state for Bush.
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