Russian Racism

[ag]

I have long been making the point that Russia is about a half century behind the civilized world on race relations. Things that would scandalize half the Le Pen voters in France, are considered socially acceptable, if not commonplace in that other part of Eurasia.

So, case in point. The official spokesman of the Federal Migration Service (the agency in charge of dealing w/ migrants in Russia), was giving an interview to the BBC. At the end of the interview he was asked if he wanted to comment on something else. At which point he chose to regale the BBC audience with a statement that "the survival of the white race is at stake" and that the "policy should be conducted in such a way that race mixing goes on in a correct way".

Granted, the guy was fired within a day. But if you read Russian blogs, half the people don't even know what is it that he said that's not obvious. He himself does not think he said anything racist ) He just said it - to the BBC, unprovoked, thought it was part of his job description

Admittedly, some smarter folks in government did see what was scandalous here. But, one can't stop thinking, his fault is not saying something like this, bu saying it to the BBC .

[patrick1]

I only have anecdotal experience with this- Russian fans throwing bananas on the pitch, black friends who were treated harshly in Russia and just reading about the # of attacks on Caucasians.  It also seems there is a quite large skinhead element. Ive been called a Slavophobe on this board before and I will freely admit that some of the stuff I see out of Russia scares the crap out of me. Then again, if you really on the internet or what you read the US likely looks like a Mad Max video.

[ag]

Well, I have more than anecdotal experience of it and that stuff that scares you is there all right. Russia, surprisingly, has learnt nothing about Nazism. The lesson of WWII learnt by that society is that a bad horde invaded and was defeated. The "never again" and repentance of the rest of Europe never registered in the mass consciousness. In fact, it was right after the war that Stalin started a massive nationalist campaign, which soon grew into vicious policy of official anti-semitism - and the society took it fine. Surprisingly, in this sense Russia is almost Latin American: WWII has not left the same imprint on it as it did on European countries.

At least, as long as the Soviet Union was there, "internationalism" remained officially sanctioned ideology (if more often in breach than in practice). Once that regime collapsed, it all reverted to outright xenophobia as social norm. Of course, the skins are rampant (talk to college deans in Moscow about academic exchanges: chances are, they'd suggest you don't send non-white students to Russia, at least not males - it's just too dangerous). But even among the civil-looking people from good families, intellectuals and otherwise members of the elite (the idiot FMS spokesman is a son of a Yeltsin cabinet member), you'd find the views that would have made Jorg Haider blush. In fact, it is NOT having these views that's considered socially unacceptable.

PS Russians are not the only Slavs ) Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenians, etc. etc.  are Slavic too ))

[Gustaf]

It's a bit of a historical twist how anti-semitism turned out - after all, a country like Germany was hardly the haven of anti-semitism before Hitler. Eastern Europe was a lot more racist and anti-Jewish to start out with and then of course they never had to repent because they didn't turn out to be the ones pushing it all the way, so to speak.

I was at my bank today looking over my investments and I told them I wanted my BRIC investments to stay out of Russia. Not just because I don't like the country but also because I'm not convinced they're going anywhere good.

[ag]

You are forgetting how Jews got to Eastern Europe in the first place: mostly, fleeing from Western European (primarily German) persecution. Admittedly, that was a "bit" earlier, long before Mendelssohn and his idea of the "Germans of the Mossaic faith": the Jews back then were much more exotic, future Eastern European style. The documented pogroms in Germany long predate the pogroms in Poland or Russia (as do, of course, the documented Jews in Germany).

Nazism is just an outgrowth of the Romantic ideal of the 19th century Europe. And, at least in this, it was a fairly faithful recreation of the Medieval European spirit: killing Jews is an old traditional European pastime.

The really funny thing is, Jews had to create their own Romantic ideal, and their own Romantic state: perhaps, the most faithfully Romantic state now in existence. Then, of course, my fellow-tribesmen, incredibly, have always enjoyed tails of chivalry.

[Boris]

I was watching this documentary on current tv regarding the neo-nazi attacks in Russia and found it mildly interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLUxuq-E9yA&feature=related

Apparently they gather on Hitler's birthday and chant "Glory to Russia!" That's like the equivalent of black people gathering on Strom Thurmond's birthday and chanting "Black Power!"

(although racist attacks or not, I wonder why anyone would want to study in such a depressing sh**thole of a country. Especially when the EU + Switzerland + Norway is merely a train ride away.)

[ag]

Well, Russia does have some quite decent universities (in some fields), great tradition of math/physics education, some very good engineering schools. Also, someone might be interested in Russian literature/language/history/art - where else to go to study it? St. Petersburg could really be quite pleasant and Moscow, though somewhat oppressive and overwhelming at times, is, in any case, a great city. Some great museums, one of the liveliest theatre scenes anywhere in the world, world-quality music, lots of interesting architecture and history, nice food (though, of course, here I am biased). Spending a year there - granted, though, the place is xenophobic and often outright unfriendly - may be a lot of fun.

It's just that one has to be very clear that it is not a modern European country culturally. Once you accept that, living among the savages for a while might be an experience of your life :))))

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Apparently they gather on Hitler's birthday and chant "Glory to Russia!" That's like the equivalent of black people gathering on Strom Thurmond's birthday and chanting "Black Power!"

Why are you dissing on Strom?  Even if you must pick on South Carolina,"Pitchfork Ben" Tillman was far more racist than Strom ever was.  In comparison to Tillman, even the 1948 Thurmond was a beacon of liberal kindness and generosity towards the Negro.

[ag]

Thurmond was a beacon of liberal kindness and generosity towards the Negro.

we even know WHICH Negro ))

[Sam Spade]

Most of the Russians in Brighton Beach would probably agree with him.  But they at least have some personal experience.

[ag]

Most of the Russians in Brighton Beach would probably agree with him.  But they at least have some personal experience.

Most of the "Russians" in Brighton Beach are not entirely certain that gentiles don't have tails. And that's hardly coming from a lot of personal experience.

[GMantis]

PS Russians are not the only Slavs ) Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenians, etc. etc.  are Slavic too ))

Not to mention that Slavs don't really have that much in common, excluding the languages.

I was watching this documentary on current tv regarding the neo-nazi attacks in Russia and found it mildly interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLUxuq-E9yA&feature=related

Apparently they gather on Hitler's birthday and chant "Glory to Russia!" That's like the equivalent of black people gathering on Strom Thurmond's birthday and chanting "Black Power!"

(although racist attacks or not, I wonder why anyone would want to study in such a depressing sh**thole of a country. Especially when the EU + Switzerland + Norway is merely a train ride away.)

I've never understood how Russians can worship Hitler, consider his life's ambition was to destroy the Russian nation.
Of course, it's possible that the supporters of Hitler are getting disproportional attention from the media - after all, you don't need to support Hitler to be a murderous xenophobe.

[Gustaf]

You are forgetting how Jews got to Eastern Europe in the first place: mostly, fleeing from Western European (primarily German) persecution. Admittedly, that was a "bit" earlier, long before Mendelssohn and his idea of the "Germans of the Mossaic faith": the Jews back then were much more exotic, future Eastern European style. The documented pogroms in Germany long predate the pogroms in Poland or Russia (as do, of course, the documented Jews in Germany).

Nazism is just an outgrowth of the Romantic ideal of the 19th century Europe. And, at least in this, it was a fairly faithful recreation of the Medieval European spirit: killing Jews is an old traditional European pastime.

The really funny thing is, Jews had to create their own Romantic ideal, and their own Romantic state: perhaps, the most faithfully Romantic state now in existence. Then, of course, my fellow-tribesmen, incredibly, have always enjoyed tails of chivalry.

I'm certainly not claiming that Western Europe was not anti-semitic. I've read a lot about the Dreyfuss case to pick a random relatively modern example.

My point was rather that Germany was not particularly anti-semitic before Hitler, compared to other European countries. Probably more so than England and Scandinavia, but probably not more than France and certainly not more than Eastern Europe. Because of Hitler that is easily forgotten.

[ag]

My point was rather that Germany was not particularly anti-semitic before Hitler, compared to other European countries. Probably more so than England and Scandinavia, but probably not more than France and certainly not more than Eastern Europe. Because of Hitler that is easily forgotten.

Depends, depends. Say, inter-war Poland allowed a real flourishing of Yiddish civilization on a scale unimaginable in Germany - or, for that matter, on a scale unimaginable today in any European country (I am pretty sure that if Muslims in Sweden, did one tenth of what was, as a matter of course, allowed to Jews in Poland then, you'd have pogroms in Stockholm today). German antisemitism was more theoretical: except in migrants from further east they would see few proper Jews. But ideologically it was also a lot more elaborated there: Germany was the core Romantic area of Europe.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Nazism is just an outgrowth of the Romantic ideal of the 19th century Europe.

That's an... um... contentious... argument these days.

[Gustaf]

My point was rather that Germany was not particularly anti-semitic before Hitler, compared to other European countries. Probably more so than England and Scandinavia, but probably not more than France and certainly not more than Eastern Europe. Because of Hitler that is easily forgotten.

Depends, depends. Say, inter-war Poland allowed a real flourishing of Yiddish civilization on a scale unimaginable in Germany - or, for that matter, on a scale unimaginable today in any European country (I am pretty sure that if Muslims in Sweden, did one tenth of what was, as a matter of course, allowed to Jews in Poland then, you'd have pogroms in Stockholm today). German antisemitism was more theoretical: except in migrants from further east they would see few proper Jews. But ideologically it was also a lot more elaborated there: Germany was the core Romantic area of Europe.

Fair enough. On the other hand, Poland did have a very large Jewish population. It would have been difficult not to grant them any rights.

[Sam Spade]

Most of the Russians in Brighton Beach would probably agree with him.  But they at least have some personal experience.

Most of the "Russians" in Brighton Beach are not entirely certain that gentiles don't have tails. And that's hardly coming from a lot of personal experience.

No disagreement there.  It's a interesting place.

[ag]

Most of the Russians in Brighton Beach would probably agree with him.  But they at least have some personal experience.

Most of the "Russians" in Brighton Beach are not entirely certain that gentiles don't have tails. And that's hardly coming from a lot of personal experience.

No disagreement there.  It's a interesting place.

It's a wonderful place, as long as you don't have to live there. I adore the accent, the grammar, and the conversation in general. And, of course, the food. But, oy wey. Cultural anthropologists shouldn't have to  travel all the way to Papua New Guinea to study tribes out of contact w/ modern civilization: it's all right there, under the subway tracks.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Know a couple of Russians here in Berlin and they're nothing like that. Brain drain of younger "liberal" college graduates?