Gettysburg: July 1, 1863 (late afternoon)
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  Gettysburg: July 1, 1863 (late afternoon)
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Frodo
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« on: April 21, 2011, 11:20:31 PM »
« edited: April 21, 2011, 11:24:37 PM by Frodo »

Watch these two scenes from the 1993 movie Gettysburg:

Scene 1

Scene 2

Who ever knew that the last two words of Lee's order to General Ewell to take Cemetery Hill upon the collapse of the Union line north and west of Gettysburg if practicable would prove so fateful to the Confederacy?

Now let's suppose that Lee had issued a clear order to Ewell without those last two words, especially cognizant of the fact that this is the first time Ewell had ever held the position of corps commander -preferably by instructing him to take that hill at all costs instead.  

First, could it have been done?  And if so, how do you think Ewell could have done so at the practical level before Cemetery Hill and Culp's Hill became too heavily fortified to be successfully assaulted?


As an aside, I sometimes wonder just how significant Lee's victory at Gettysburg at the end of July 1 would have been, especially when you consider that Meade could just simply put into action his long-standing plan to deploy the Army of the Potomac along the Big Pipe Creek line in Maryland, which is where he wanted to fight all along.
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J. J.
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« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2011, 12:43:15 AM »

Johnson (C) sent a force to reconnoiter Culp's Hill on July 1 and found it occupied too heavily to attack with his troops.  Also Buford's Calvary Division (U) was on Johnson eastern flank, and could have attacked that flank and the rear.  Had Ewell's Corp (C) attacked in the north, they would have failed and have had massive casualties (2500-4500).

Cemetery Hill is another matter.  Hill (C) could have taken it, but probably with 2000-4000 casualties.  He just would have taken the hill, but not the entire Cemetery Ridge.  There would have been flank attacks south of the hill itself.

July 2 dawns, the Army of Northern Virginia has 10,000-14,500 casualties (the Union might have 12,000-16,000) and Cemetery Hill.  The Union has the Round Tops and Culp's Hill, and cannon converging on Cemetery Hill.  I don't think that is a winning position.
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Frodo
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« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2011, 01:24:47 PM »

Johnson (C) sent a force to reconnoiter Culp's Hill on July 1 and found it occupied too heavily to attack with his troops.  Also Buford's Calvary Division (U) was on Johnson eastern flank, and could have attacked that flank and the rear.  Had Ewell's Corp (C) attacked in the north, they would have failed and have had massive casualties (2500-4500).

Cemetery Hill is another matter.  Hill (C) could have taken it, but probably with 2000-4000 casualties.  He just would have taken the hill, but not the entire Cemetery Ridge.  There would have been flank attacks south of the hill itself.

July 2 dawns, the Army of Northern Virginia has 10,000-14,500 casualties (the Union might have 12,000-16,000) and Cemetery Hill.  The Union has the Round Tops and Culp's Hill, and cannon converging on Cemetery Hill.  I don't think that is a winning position.

Why would Hancock continue to hold on to Culp's Hill and Cemetery Ridge when Cemetery Hill is in Confederate hands?  Lee had a reason for focusing on that particular hill -it linked the OTL Union position together.  It makes little sense for Hancock to hold on to the rest of his position when a key portion of it is in Confederate hands leaving the rest of his forces vulnerable to being outflanked or encircled.  His line would fragment.  No, I think he would retreat and rejoin the rest of Meade's army at Big Pipe Creek where they would make a last stand. 
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2011, 09:33:08 PM »

The main problem was that by the time Johnson's men arrived, it was too late to take Culp's Hill, which was already being occupied by Slocum's XII corps, and remnents of the I Corps. Ewell would have had to use Early's men to take the hill, or Rhodes and both had been heavily committed in the effort to drive back Reynolds and Howard from Seminary Ridge and "Barlow's" knoll. They were tired, worn out, disorganized and scattered. Plus they had a ton of Union POW's and significant casualties to deal with. We can all question and blame Ewell for his lack of aggression, but logistics can't be ignored. Even Jackson was forced to stop at Chancellorsville and give up the opportunity to trap Hooker by capturing the United States Ford, just hours before being shot accidentally.

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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2011, 09:43:00 PM »
« Edited: April 25, 2011, 09:44:44 PM by Senator North Carolina Yankee »

Johnson (C) sent a force to reconnoiter Culp's Hill on July 1 and found it occupied too heavily to attack with his troops.  Also Buford's Calvary Division (U) was on Johnson eastern flank, and could have attacked that flank and the rear.  Had Ewell's Corp (C) attacked in the north, they would have failed and have had massive casualties (2500-4500).

Cemetery Hill is another matter.  Hill (C) could have taken it, but probably with 2000-4000 casualties.  He just would have taken the hill, but not the entire Cemetery Ridge.  There would have been flank attacks south of the hill itself.

July 2 dawns, the Army of Northern Virginia has 10,000-14,500 casualties (the Union might have 12,000-16,000) and Cemetery Hill.  The Union has the Round Tops and Culp's Hill, and cannon converging on Cemetery Hill.  I don't think that is a winning position.

Why would Hancock continue to hold on to Culp's Hill and Cemetery Ridge when Cemetery Hill is in Confederate hands?  Lee had a reason for focusing on that particular hill -it linked the OTL Union position together.  It makes little sense for Hancock to hold on to the rest of his position when a key portion of it is in Confederate hands leaving the rest of his forces vulnerable to being outflanked or encircled.  His line would fragment.  No, I think he would retreat and rejoin the rest of Meade's army at Big Pipe Creek where they would make a last stand.  

Meade had sent Hancock ahead of him and the his II Corps, once news of Reynolds death had reached him, to 1) Take command of the troops on the field and 2) to ascertain the situation and judge whether or not the position he found the Union troops in was defensable. If he arrived to find Cemetary hill occupied by Hill, he would have withdrawn the I, XI and XII corps back to MD.

There is a speculative scenario in Sid Meier's Gettysburg, in which Hancock has to attack and drive Anderson from Cemetary Hill with his II corps on July 2nd. There is also a speculative scenario about Jackson at Gettysburg, in that great game. Wink
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J. J.
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« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2011, 12:27:25 AM »



Why would Hancock continue to hold on to Culp's Hill and Cemetery Ridge when Cemetery Hill is in Confederate hands?  Lee had a reason for focusing on that particular hill -it linked the OTL Union position together.  It makes little sense for Hancock to hold on to the rest of his position when a key portion of it is in Confederate hands leaving the rest of his forces vulnerable to being outflanked or encircled.  His line would fragment.  No, I think he would retreat and rejoin the rest of Meade's army at Big Pipe Creek where they would make a last stand. 

Well, Hancock (and we should probably say Howard or Doubleday) still had a very solid defensive position, with converging fire, major reinforcements and a defense in depth.  Further, keeping the ANV there keeps them from crossing the Susquehanna.

We also have the point NCY made, with a twist.  You have a very weakened Ewell (and Hill) holding the position.  Unless they attack, with weakened forces, they really gained nothing, and they don't have the strength to attack.  If the Union retreats, it gives the Confederates time to rest.
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