$15/hour minimum wage

[opebo]

Say, do any of you scions of privilege remember that I used to vociferously advocate a minimum wage of $15/hour for america?  I wonder how many of you know that the Australian federal minimum wage happens to be $15/hour?  That's Australian dollars, but those are worth slightly more than American dollars now anyway.  It is time we caught up.

[Secretary Polnut]

While I agree that our minimum wage is appropriate... it should be noted that Australian cities have a higher cost of living...

[Tik]

^ This is true. However, i actually agree with opebo with this. America is the richest country in the world and can easily afford to have the middle and lower classes given more in wages. I make 18 an hour which is considered rather poor down here. If i were making that in the states my peers would be jealous. I really think Americans are getting the wool pulled over their eyes. You're being played for suckers. So am I, but not nearly as badly.

[ag]

This was, actually, one of the reasons I chose not to live in Australia and went to Mexico instead: at the wage they were offering a Lecturer (equivalent to Assistant Professor in North America) I wouldn't have been able to make ends meet. They've raised those academic wages since, but, given the cost of living in, say, Sydney, they are still pretty low (I guess, Melbourne would be doable). There are tradeoffs for everything.

At 15 dollars and hour, there would be no legal employment in the US for a huge chunk of the population. Australia has chosen to keep those people on the dole, but this doesn't fly in the US politically. So, a lot of people would be forced into, I guess, drug running and prostitution, since every other employment would have been legally prohibited for them.

[President Mitt]

no

[Tender Branson]

gross (without taxes deducted) or net (with taxes already deducted) ?

This would amount to 1650€ a month for a full-time worker (160 hours).

In Austria that would leave you with about 1300€ a month in net wage, which would be OK with me for a minimum wage.

[opebo]

At 15 dollars and hour, there would be no legal employment in the US for a huge chunk of the population. Australia has chosen to keep those people on the dole, but this doesn't fly in the US politically.

Obviously a generous and comfortable dole is the other side of the coin to a high minimum wage in a 'capitalist' economy, and is even more economically beneficial.

[ag]

At 15 dollars and hour, there would be no legal employment in the US for a huge chunk of the population. Australia has chosen to keep those people on the dole, but this doesn't fly in the US politically.

Obviously a generous and comfortable dole is the other side of the coin to a high minimum wage in a 'capitalist' economy, and is even more economically beneficial.

And further entrenching the underclass, incapable of ever getting off the dole. Your lordship, really, hates the poor, unless the satisfy his sexual needs.

[Secretary Polnut]

It's not like our economy is the one falling to pieces...

[memphis]

At 15 dollars and hour, there would be no legal employment in the US for a huge chunk of the population. Australia has chosen to keep those people on the dole, but this doesn't fly in the US politically.

Obviously a generous and comfortable dole is the other side of the coin to a high minimum wage in a 'capitalist' economy, and is even more economically beneficial.

And further entrenching the underclass, incapable of ever getting off the dole. Your lordship, really, hates the poor, unless the satisfy his sexual needs.

Not like anybody escapes the true underclass in the States anyhow.

[opebo]

And further entrenching the underclass, incapable of ever getting off the dole. Your lordship, really, hates the poor, unless the satisfy his sexual needs.

No, ag, it is your capitalist system which entrenches the underclass.  (not that this issue is important vis-a-vis the macroeconomic benefit of a dole).

[Platypus]

It's not like our economy is the one falling to pieces...

And even without the mining boom, the core structure of our economy is still strong enough to cope with turbulence. It'd be much less comfortable, of course, but by having almost entirely free competition within set guidelines (including minimum wages) we've got a pretty well balanced economy.

[TheGlobalizer]

Not like anybody escapes the true underclass in the States anyhow.

Social economic engineering is an utter myth.  Many people in the underclass cannot function but in the underclass economic system, and there's little anyone can do to adjust that behavior.  It's really a question of how many people you want working and being productive vs. how many people you want to pay to behave themselves out of sight of your rose gardens and cafes.  This life of dignity crap is a joke, because the whole premise of minimum wages and welfare benefits presumes the lack of any meaningful dignity in the first place.

[opebo]

Social economic engineering is an utter myth.  Many people in the underclass cannot function but in the underclass economic system, and there's little anyone can do to adjust that behavior.

It has nothing to do with behavior, Glob!  It has to do with power.  In fact the US mostly only provides WalMart and McDonalds type jobs (underclass jobs), so inevitably more and more people will be underclass in future, till soon it is the majority. And they all wake up early and live in fear and don't enjoy anything, and work like dogs.   

It's really a question of how many people you want working and being productive vs. how many people you want to pay to behave themselves out of sight of your rose gardens and cafes.  This life of dignity crap is a joke, because the whole premise of minimum wages and welfare benefits presumes the lack of any meaningful dignity in the first place.

There is a total lack of dignity for not only the underclass of Walmart and Mcdonalds level workers, but also the 'middle class' (if it still exists at all), of $20-/hour or $500/week whatevers (to be honest I cannot even imagine what is a 'middle class job' nowadays).  Basically anyone who works for a living has no dignity, but is a rat in a wheel or a slave in cotton field - anyone who has no union, no constantly increasing leisure time and pay, is hopelessly undignified.

By the by, you mention the rose gardens and cafes - these are only for a very, very tiny and shrinking minority of Americans.

[TheGlobalizer]

Social economic engineering is an utter myth.  Many people in the underclass cannot function but in the underclass economic system, and there's little anyone can do to adjust that behavior.

It has nothing to do with behavior, Glob!  It has to do with power.  In fact the US mostly only provides WalMart and McDonalds type jobs (underclass jobs), so inevitably more and more people will be underclass in future, till soon it is the majority. And they all wake up early and live in fear and don't enjoy anything, and work like dogs.   

As someone who until recently lived hip-deep in the underclass (south Baltimore), I can tell you that the above in no way reflects my experiences, at all, with the "underclass".  The underclass in Maryland is a direct result of behavior, and the attitudes that the urban poverty culture inculcates into the youth.  In my neighborhood, there was trash all over the streets, people screaming and fighting and pissing everywhere and acting like fools at all hours of the day.  Women farting at my front door, junkies vomiting in the street, teenage girls with strollers out at 1am, vandalism, petty crime.

If that's the underclass you're talking about, f*** the underclass, I hope they starve, the world would be better off for it.

The people you describe sound like people who do OK but simply want more.  Not really the "underclass", more like the working class.  That's fine, but it takes knowledge, skills, abilities, etc. to obtain a better lot in life.  The minimum wage is an extremely blunt tool that basically just says that half of those people can have it and the other half lose what they have today.

And say what you want about Walmart, but there's 20 million or so people out there today who would love that job.

[opebo]

As someone who until recently lived hip-deep in the underclass (south Baltimore), I can tell you that the above in no way reflects my experiences, at all, with the "underclass".  The underclass in Maryland is a direct result of behavior, and the attitudes that the urban poverty culture inculcates into the youth.  In my neighborhood, there was trash all over the streets, people screaming and fighting and pissing everywhere and acting like fools at all hours of the day.  Women farting at my front door, junkies vomiting in the street, teenage girls with strollers out at 1am, vandalism, petty crime.

Well it certainly sounds like you have some issues with your people.  I like the 'women farting at my front door' line, though.  Is that like the Big Bad Wolf trying to blow it down?  Or just a kind of self-supplied doorbell?  "I's a come-a-callin', phoot phoot!"

If that's the underclass you're talking about, f*** the underclass, I hope they starve, the world would be better off for it.

Um, self-hate alert.  Those people are not 'acting', they are like puppets on a string - every action they appear to be doing is being caused by their owners, who live far away in the Hamptons and such places.

The people you describe sound like people who do OK but simply want more.  Not really the "underclass", more like the working class.  That's fine, but it takes knowledge, skills, abilities, etc. to obtain a better lot in life.  The minimum wage is an extremely blunt tool that basically just says that half of those people can have it and the other half lose what they have today.

No, the working class and the under class are identical.

And say what you want about Walmart, but there's 20 million or so people out there today who would love that job.

No, no one would love that job.  They love not starving to death.  But they hate that they're forced to work at Walmart to be allowed to eat.

[MOP]

Social economic engineering is an utter myth.  Many people in the underclass cannot function but in the underclass economic system, and there's little anyone can do to adjust that behavior.

It has nothing to do with behavior, Glob!  It has to do with power.  In fact the US mostly only provides WalMart and McDonalds type jobs (underclass jobs), so inevitably more and more people will be underclass in future, till soon it is the majority. And they all wake up early and live in fear and don't enjoy anything, and work like dogs.   

As someone who until recently lived hip-deep in the underclass (south Baltimore), I can tell you that the above in no way reflects my experiences, at all, with the "underclass".  The underclass in Maryland is a direct result of behavior, and the attitudes that the urban poverty culture inculcates into the youth.  In my neighborhood, there was trash all over the streets, people screaming and fighting and pissing everywhere and acting like fools at all hours of the day.  Women farting at my front door, junkies vomiting in the street, teenage girls with strollers out at 1am, vandalism, petty crime.

If that's the underclass you're talking about, f*** the underclass, I hope they starve, the world would be better off for it.

The people you describe sound like people who do OK but simply want more.  Not really the "underclass", more like the working class.  That's fine, but it takes knowledge, skills, abilities, etc. to obtain a better lot in life.  The minimum wage is an extremely blunt tool that basically just says that half of those people can have it and the other half lose what they have today.

And say what you want about Walmart, but there's 20 million or so people out there today who would love that job.

I don't know if this is appropriate to ask, but are you black?

[Fmr. Emperor PiT]

At 15 dollars and hour, there would be no legal employment in the US for a huge chunk of the population. Australia has chosen to keep those people on the dole, but this doesn't fly in the US politically. So, a lot of people would be forced into, I guess, drug running and prostitution, since every other employment would have been legally prohibited for them.

     Eh, for the time being that would be true. But small businesses would get crushed & inflation would do its dirty work, so that $15 in several years would be worth $7.25 or whatever the federal minimum wage is today. In other words, small businesses would suffer, the rich would benefit, & the poor would, at best, experience no real change. Why am I not surprised?

[Sam Spade]

My advice, opebo, is to stick to trolling and avoid serious discussion, which you appear horribly unprepared for.  In other words, play to your strengths.

[CitizenX]

Social economic engineering is an utter myth.  Many people in the underclass cannot function but in the underclass economic system, and there's little anyone can do to adjust that behavior.

It has nothing to do with behavior, Glob!  It has to do with power.  In fact the US mostly only provides WalMart and McDonalds type jobs (underclass jobs), so inevitably more and more people will be underclass in future, till soon it is the majority. And they all wake up early and live in fear and don't enjoy anything, and work like dogs.   

As someone who until recently lived hip-deep in the underclass (south Baltimore), I can tell you that the above in no way reflects my experiences, at all, with the "underclass".  The underclass in Maryland is a direct result of behavior, and the attitudes that the urban poverty culture inculcates into the youth.  In my neighborhood, there was trash all over the streets, people screaming and fighting and pissing everywhere and acting like fools at all hours of the day.  Women farting at my front door, junkies vomiting in the street, teenage girls with strollers out at 1am, vandalism, petty crime.

If that's the underclass you're talking about, f*** the underclass, I hope they starve, the world would be better off for it.

You must be one of those compassionate conservatives I used to hear about 10 yrs ago.

These people need help not your ridicule.  Have you seen The Biggest Loser?  Those people look awful on day one.  I wouldn't hire a single one of them.  But with dedication, help, and hard work most of those people make a miraculous transformation.  Instead of W Bush spending $1 Trillion+ killing 600,000 Iraqis we spent $1 Trillion in the ghettos of this country can you imagine what our cities would be like?  Think about it.

[Ebowed]

The Australian minimum wage just increased slightly, too, but from my observations it is difficult for most people to sustain a healthy and comfortable lifestyle making $15/hour.

[Sibboleth]

Interesting how people use the word 'underclass' as if it were an objective term.

[Cincinnatus]

Social economic engineering is an utter myth.  Many people in the underclass cannot function but in the underclass economic system, and there's little anyone can do to adjust that behavior.

It has nothing to do with behavior, Glob!  It has to do with power.  In fact the US mostly only provides WalMart and McDonalds type jobs (underclass jobs), so inevitably more and more people will be underclass in future, till soon it is the majority. And they all wake up early and live in fear and don't enjoy anything, and work like dogs.   

As someone who until recently lived hip-deep in the underclass (south Baltimore), I can tell you that the above in no way reflects my experiences, at all, with the "underclass".  The underclass in Maryland is a direct result of behavior, and the attitudes that the urban poverty culture inculcates into the youth.  In my neighborhood, there was trash all over the streets, people screaming and fighting and pissing everywhere and acting like fools at all hours of the day.  Women farting at my front door, junkies vomiting in the street, teenage girls with strollers out at 1am, vandalism, petty crime.

If that's the underclass you're talking about, f*** the underclass, I hope they starve, the world would be better off for it.

You must be one of those compassionate conservatives I used to hear about 10 yrs ago.

These people need help not your ridicule.  Have you seen The Biggest Loser?  Those people look awful on day one.  I wouldn't hire a single one of them.  But with dedication, help, and hard work most of those people make a miraculous transformation.  Instead of W Bush spending $1 Trillion+ killing 600,000 Iraqis we spent $1 Trillion in the ghettos of this country can you imagine what our cities would be like?  Think about it.

$1 trillion ?  Do you really think that's enough..  Let me open my wallet, maybe I can get us .0000...1 % there.  Do you hear yourself?  Let's just spend $1 trillion we don't have.  It would be nice if we didn't waste money on the War in Iraq, but the American people voted twice for Bush, so we've made our own bed regarding that.  Spending $1 trillion on cities?  You do realize it'll cost us an estimated $2 trillion alone to fix our infrastructure?  A lot of people don't want to just be given the money.  They want an opportunity to earn it, and that's where the hard work lies for government. 

[opebo]

     Eh, for the time being that would be true. But small businesses would get crushed & inflation would do its dirty work, so that $15 in several years would be worth $7.25 or whatever the federal minimum wage is today. In other words, small businesses would suffer, the rich would benefit, & the poor would, at best, experience no real change. Why am I not surprised?

You make a reasonable point - it would be better to seize all the property of the rich than just try to blunt the brutality of the system.

[Insula Dei]

Ah yes, the poor are poor because they are unworthy.