Osama bin Laden dead (Official)

[Badger]

The scene outside the White House has gotten more lively.

Watching it on CNN. Some douche is waving a "Bush-Cheney 04" placard.

[Badger]

Please don't turn this into another thread focusing on BushOK.

[Badger]

Oh yeah. This is AMAZING!! The crowds outside the WH are heart-swelling!

[Badger]

Anya: A man who orchestrated the murder of almost 3000 people, plus countless other acts of barbarity, is finally brought to the permanent justice he so richly deserves after a decade of searching. Justice is served. Celebration is wholly warranted.

[Badger]

I hate it. He is just horrible. He being obama.

How so?

Well I really hate it when people use patriotism as a licence to kill. Our people? you kidding me? The only thing that makes us American is us just saying we are. nothing else. I find is dishonest. It makes me want to vomit when he pulls a card like that. Be honest and keep the facts clean. And stop brainwashing us into thinking we are one when we dont even know half of the people living in America. yuck!

What's the point of having a country then?  Or the point of unity?  Or of patriotism all in of itself?

there is a point. But it is merely to make social connections. But it should never be used to end someones life and to make to seem that is ok. That makes me mad. A life is a life, and to make us think that because we are 'Americans' we have to right to kill someone despite what they have done, and are 'defending our people' is crap. There is no need to lie. If you are going to kill someone it should be because he has killed many people. Not because he killed Americans. Had they not been Americans obama would not give a sh**t.

And which one do you think matters more to the Americans?  That he killed Americans or that he killed people?  As you said, we do not know half the country itself, but I think it is safe to say that more than half care about the death of Americans than the death of people as a whole.

I disagree. I care far more when patriotism is out of the question. Honestly, i care more about people dying period. Not Americans. And it is rather low to party over someone dying! no matter what it is just rude. If justice is served already there is not need to dance about in the streets. Partying makes the theory of justice just dissolve away. There is no justice. Man i despise people right now.

I can appreciate where your coming from. I don't like to see people jubiliant over anyone's death, but really it is understandable, when you consider how he did set out to kill Americans, so Osama made himself the enemy of all Americans.  He has been the focus of people's hurt over the attacks on 9/11 and fears of another attack, so this feels like a relief, though I don't know how much it will make people safer. I do hope no innocent people died in the attack, but sadly it's likely someone did.

Well you see take out Americans and then I will take this as a matter for humanity. But as of the fact that you yourself are using americans as a group, as a whole, I shall not. And if you think that him dying will help us you are wrong! He has a man in charge incase anything happens to him. And this partying will only fuel that fire as well, thereby subjecting humans to more casualties when they attack again.  But no one thinks about that. No one sees how much more harm this partying is doing. And attacks will increase. They will probably go for DC now. And will most likely succeed.
And to be the enemy of all americans? rly? That is effed up. everyone around the world should be upset that this is happening period. Even people in china and India. But i presume that these attacks increased with us merely occupying them.

Badger:
Celebration my ass. I dont care if justice was served. When someone dies you simply don't party. Do you not know that this will add fuel to the fire? We are no where near done. Yes he should die, I agree with that seniment, but my reason differs from most people. If your reason is nationalistic I would disagree. If it is purely on the fact that he has killed someone then yes, we agree. But it is important to notice the difference between the two different reasons.

Good morning, Anya. My reasons are a cross. Yes, I will proudly say that patriotism is a part of it, but at least or as much is simply the fact one of the greatest mass murderers in the last decade was killed. I would feel similar if he'd killed 3000 non-Americans. The fact he struck home though makes it all the stronger.

I don't deny my patriotism, and am proud of it. The difference is between a knee jerk "my country right or wrong" nationalism which I believe has led us to the worse moments in our history, vs. feeling pride in our country when it does something indeed celebration worthy like last night.

[Badger]

CNN is reporting they've already burried Bin Laden at sea.

I assume this was done so that his burial ground doesn't become a magnet for nutjobs from all over the Muslim world.

So since he's already been buried at sea, how long until right-wing commentators accuse Obama of fabricating his death for political benefit?

I predict another book from Jerome Corsi.

<sigh> It's already happening. A quick review of web traffic shows a loud minority refusing to believe it (Obama staged it for political purposes, etc, etc). It seems we already have a new political sub-movement---the "deathers".

Even more widespread is the angry retort in the middle of anti-Obama screeds of "Obama didn't get Osama, the U.S. military did". Sadly, expect this denunnciation of giving the Commander-in-Chief an ounce of credit for a military mission he personally authorized after a series of meetings on the subject to be the line du jour of professional Obama haters. Watch how long before this becomes the de facto official response of the right. Professional haters like Rush and Hannity will combine it with an explicit "so don't give President Obama credit here" kiss-off, while Congressional and party leaders will simply pointedly leave mention of Obama out of most celebratory statements. W's response congratulating the President and the military will likely be among the exceptions to the rule.

I'm not trying to be political; I'm just sad how political this has already become in this divided country.

[Badger]

I hate it. He is just horrible. He being obama.

How so?

Well I really hate it when people use patriotism as a licence to kill. Our people? you kidding me? The only thing that makes us American is us just saying we are. nothing else. I find is dishonest. It makes me want to vomit when he pulls a card like that. Be honest and keep the facts clean. And stop brainwashing us into thinking we are one when we dont even know half of the people living in America. yuck!

What's the point of having a country then?  Or the point of unity?  Or of patriotism all in of itself?

there is a point. But it is merely to make social connections. But it should never be used to end someones life and to make to seem that is ok. That makes me mad. A life is a life, and to make us think that because we are 'Americans' we have to right to kill someone despite what they have done, and are 'defending our people' is crap. There is no need to lie. If you are going to kill someone it should be because he has killed many people. Not because he killed Americans. Had they not been Americans obama would not give a sh**t.

And which one do you think matters more to the Americans?  That he killed Americans or that he killed people?  As you said, we do not know half the country itself, but I think it is safe to say that more than half care about the death of Americans than the death of people as a whole.

I disagree. I care far more when patriotism is out of the question. Honestly, i care more about people dying period. Not Americans. And it is rather low to party over someone dying! no matter what it is just rude. If justice is served already there is not need to dance about in the streets. Partying makes the theory of justice just dissolve away. There is no justice. Man i despise people right now.

I can appreciate where your coming from. I don't like to see people jubiliant over anyone's death, but really it is understandable, when you consider how he did set out to kill Americans, so Osama made himself the enemy of all Americans.  He has been the focus of people's hurt over the attacks on 9/11 and fears of another attack, so this feels like a relief, though I don't know how much it will make people safer. I do hope no innocent people died in the attack, but sadly it's likely someone did.

Well you see take out Americans and then I will take this as a matter for humanity. But as of the fact that you yourself are using americans as a group, as a whole, I shall not. And if you think that him dying will help us you are wrong! He has a man in charge incase anything happens to him. And this partying will only fuel that fire as well, thereby subjecting humans to more casualties when they attack again.  But no one thinks about that. No one sees how much more harm this partying is doing. And attacks will increase. They will probably go for DC now. And will most likely succeed.
And to be the enemy of all americans? rly? That is effed up. everyone around the world should be upset that this is happening period. Even people in china and India. But i presume that these attacks increased with us merely occupying them.

Badger:
Celebration my ass. I dont care if justice was served. When someone dies you simply don't party. Do you not know that this will add fuel to the fire? We are no where near done. Yes he should die, I agree with that seniment, but my reason differs from most people. If your reason is nationalistic I would disagree. If it is purely on the fact that he has killed someone then yes, we agree. But it is important to notice the difference between the two different reasons.

Good morning, Anya. My reasons are a cross. Yes, I will proudly say that patriotism is a part of it, but at least or as much is simply the fact one of the greatest mass murderers in the last decade was killed. I would feel similar if he'd killed 3000 non-Americans. The fact he struck home though makes it all the stronger.

I don't deny my patriotism, and am proud of it. The difference is between a knee jerk "my country right or wrong" nationalism which I believe has led us to the worse moments in our history, vs. feeling pride in our country when it does something indeed celebration worthy like last night.

The fact that he struck your 'home' should not make it stronger.  Why should it? does terror and pain for others only go to a certain extent basided on distance? Do families suffer less based on how far they are off american land? To celebrate a death is just wrong. Yes, he deserved his ending. But no, you should not party in the streets like morons because Our country got him. Our country didn't get him. Certain people in the military got him, not out country. They just happen to have a liscense to kill with the flag on behind them.  To be happy one guy has paid for his crime is one thing. it binge drink to it like everything is good now is just rude. I know what you are saying I do. I get it I simply don't agree. Empathy for everyone should be the same for everyone around the world, not just at home. Space and time compression makes it far easier to do that. Yet, most people only care when it is here. I must say, I am very happy he is dead, despite him being quite handsome. But I am happy for a different reason. It has nothing to do with america. It has to do with people. A little change like that.  But since I can merely state myself over and over again for a little while before I grow tired, i suggest we just agree to disagree. Besides, I will be the only one in the class who isnt nationalistic today will will prnbably punch a guy who is a prick. So i have to go get ready for being suspended. Have a good day.

Anya: Of course it makes it stronger and naturally so. There are many, many people who suffered far, FAR worse than me on that day by far. My memories of that day hit home nonetheless. I have a sister who worked in the Financial District. She was fine, but her stories of watching the Towers collapse from her window, and trying to calm a hysterical co-worker sobbing under her desk because her fiance worked at WTC--but survived, thank God--are harrowing. She lost her faith in God that day from the death she watched, and not sure if she ever recovered it. I had a long term girlfriend who worked for the government in Alexandria. I'd confused it with Arlington at the time, but that didn't make it any less harrowing a morning till we touched base. I have a father who at the time flew on USAir all the time out of Pittsburgh, and I didn't know for sometime where the plane in Shanksville, PA had flown out of---only that it was not too far out of Pgh International. Then there's the WTC: Beautiful---I'll never forget their view, or their majesty.

So yes, I didn't suffer directly the way many did, but it hurt---badly---and not just because I'm an American. Most of us wept over our grandparent's death, but do we weep equally for every grandparent we read about dying in the obits? Of course not, because the loss is more personal. The same applies here, even if I don't (fortunately) know anyone directly killed or injured in 9/11.

Try at least not to ruin your own day by getting suspended, eh? If you are so against violence being justified by nationalism, punching someone in the name of anti-nationalism hardly proves a point.

[Badger]

One of his sons. He has many.

He now has one less son.  So does Gadhafi.

That doesn't sound so Christian.......are your parents and church bretheren happy too?

In fairness, wasn't this one of his adult sons who was a big a bastard as dad (hence staying with daddy the terrorist)?

[Badger]

CNN is reporting they've already burried Bin Laden at sea.

I assume this was done so that his burial ground doesn't become a magnet for nutjobs from all over the Muslim world.

So since he's already been buried at sea, how long until right-wing commentators accuse Obama of fabricating his death for political benefit?

I predict another book from Jerome Corsi.

<sigh> It's already happening. A quick review of web traffic shows a loud minority refusing to believe it (Obama staged it for political purposes, etc, etc). It seems we already have a new political sub-movement---the "deathers".

Even more widespread is the angry retort in the middle of anti-Obama screeds of "Obama didn't get Osama, the U.S. military did". Sadly, expect this denunnciation of giving the Commander-in-Chief an ounce of credit for a military mission he personally authorized after a series of meetings on the subject to be the line du jour of professional Obama haters. Watch how long before this becomes the de facto official response of the right. Professional haters like Rush and Hannity will combine it with an explicit "so don't give President Obama credit here" kiss-off, while Congressional and party leaders will simply pointedly leave mention of Obama out of most celebratory statements. W's response congratulating the President and the military will likely be among the exceptions to the rule.

I'm not trying to be political; I'm just sad how political this has already become in this divided country.

According to politico, Rush Limbaugh is doing an about-face by saying "Thank God for President Obama."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54122.html

Wow! I am shocked, and equally happy to admit I was wrong.

Please let it last. I don't expect the right wing news to merely treat Obama as a "worthy advisary" from here on in, but on this one issue maybe it can last.

Maybe?

[Badger]

While military experts wanted to bomb the Pakistani mansion where bin Laden was hiding, Limbaugh said, Obama may have “single-handedly [come] up with the technique” of attacking the target at the ground level. He credited the president with much more military prowess than Obama critics usually attribute to the president.

“President Obama, perhaps the only qualified member in the room to deal with this, insisted on the Special Forces,” he said. “No one else thought of that…. Not a single intelligence adviser, not a single national security adviser, not a single military adviser came up with the idea of using SEAL Team 6 or any Special Forces.”

Wow. Words to follow I have never said before, or likely ever will again:

"Ditto Rush".

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54122.html#ixzz1LDut7tN7

[Badger]

While military experts wanted to bomb the Pakistani mansion where bin Laden was hiding, Limbaugh said, Obama may have “single-handedly [come] up with the technique” of attacking the target at the ground level. He credited the president with much more military prowess than Obama critics usually attribute to the president.

“President Obama, perhaps the only qualified member in the room to deal with this, insisted on the Special Forces,” he said. “No one else thought of that…. Not a single intelligence adviser, not a single national security adviser, not a single military adviser came up with the idea of using SEAL Team 6 or any Special Forces.”

Wow. Words to follow I have never said before, or likely ever will again:

"Ditto Rush".

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54122.html#ixzz1LDut7tN7

The articles are all misquoting him.  He was using sarcasm if you actually listened to it.  He gave the President credit for continuing the Bush policy, and said that the President was taking all of the credit over the military, because he's "the only qualified member.."

I might have known. I only took it from the article, of course. But I'm not at all shocked that even during this moment of transcendent patriotism that Limbaugh would be a major league douche.

[Badger]

Well, if the country is ruled by a dictator, the country itself isn't going to ask for help.  That's where the gray zone is... when do we have a duty to help?  And what do we do to help?  Not everybody wants American Democracy, and we shouldn't force that on people who don't want it.

if they dont want it then they wont have a problem with how they are being ruled.

Don't want what?  American Democracy?  There's plenty of other styles of government besides how we do it here.

Dictatorships even work for some countries, but the problem with that is that you won't ALWAYS have a "good" dictator.

What i am more are less unsecessfully getting at is that despite how they are being ruled they can always ask us to help for a different kind of gov besides ours. Ours isnt even that great. If they wanted a communist government and asked our help for it then we should help them. And who they elect is up to them. We shouldn't kick out their choice and put in our to suit us like we have done so many times.

I understand what you're saying.  But you have to remember that many Iraqis hailed us as liberators in the beginning of the war, and we got rid of a man who was killing thousands.

No, very few did outside Kurdistan. Most Iraqis outside his tribe and government supporters liked Saddam, and many feared/loathed him. But don't let that confuse the difference between dislike or even hatred of Saddam and supporting a foreign non-Muslim army invading and occupying one's homeland. The two are not synonymous.

[Badger]

If I may take a moment and clarify my position and the position of most Christians I know on the death of Osama Bin Laden.  We celebrate the removal of evil.  We don't celebrate the death of a non-believer.

I'm overjoyed by Bin Laden's death, but where do Christians draw the line between "acceptable" and "unacceptable" killings? The Catholic Church, for example, has said his death should not be celebrated, although I'm unaware of any official stance on the killing itself.

So serious question: how is allowed to be killed from a Christian viewpoint? A mass murderer? Any murderer on the street?

As said, I support what was done 100% here, but certainly not for any religious reasons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_War

Not to say there aren't reasonable critiques of Aquanis's doctrine, and it may not completely fit, but FWIW it is still well accepted by the Catholic Church IIRC.

[Badger]

Stupidity knows no ideology.

Praytell, oh Forum Sphinx, to which of several issues in this thread are you referring to? Not to undermine your oracle-like coolness vibe....

[Badger]

 One article I read even pointed out that Germany was a more Christian nation than the U.S., and the sheer vengefulness shown by the U.S. demonstrates just how different American and German societies are!

Yes, we can learn so much from Germany's example in not letting previous military strikes against one's country inspire vengeful overreaction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles#Historical_assessments

<ahem>