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angus
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« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2011, 08:32:26 pm »
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Forgot to ensure college credit was rewarded?

That's not a "mess up."  College credit should never be rewarded for any AP test.

Not that AP classes aren't good.  I'm a big supporter of the system, because "advanced placement" courses are taught at a level that American high school students should be taking, but they are certainly not a decent replacement for university-level classes, regardless of what your councilors may tell you.

I intend to have my son take every AP course offered when he's old enough.  But I certainly won't advise him to try to opt out of the fine education that our great universities offer.  Remember, our universities attract students from all over the world.  They're wonderful and great.  If you look on any list of the top ten universities of the world, US institutions comprise about 6 to 8 of them, depending on the list.  But our high schools?  Do they come from all over the world to attend them?  They do not.  Even our best high schools are poorly performing.  We offer what we should be offering to any science-bound student something called "advanced placement" calculus or physics or chemistry, when in reality those are the exact courses that in most societies any science-bound student would be taking by the age of 15 or 16 as a matter of ordinary ciriculum, and those students don't hope to "opt out" of their studies in Freshman math, chemistry, or physics when they arrive at MIT or Stanford.  And it's exactly why our own students do so poorly.  Some administrator tells them, "oh, go on and take Organic Chemistry because you have already had the equivalent of General Chemistry I and II"  Bullshit!  You have not.  You have had what passes for high-school courses in much of the developed and underdeveloped world when you take "advanced placement" courses.   

Oh, don't get me wrong.  I hope you all take AP classes, and I hope you all score a 5 in all of them.  But do yourself a favor and enroll in all the courses, not only in your major but also in the core curriculum.  Don't try to cut corners in your university education.  Unless your folks are poor, plan on spending at least 4 years in university and enjoying them.  Those are great years.  Exploit them.  Learn.  Get laid.  LIve a little.

And yes, Viceroy tb75, six years of high school spanish is less spanish than growing up in Spain from birth to the age of about7.  No doubt about that.  Don't let it get you down.  You take AP courses, hopefully, to learn.  Not to circumvent the system.  Enjoy your college years.  Don't skip them. 
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« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2011, 08:50:22 pm »
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My high school was hardcore. My AP classes were a hell of a lot more challenging and rewarding than generic 101 in college. A lot has to do with self-selection of interested students into AP classes. And a lot has to do with how much more classroom time you get in high school versus in college. At most 10% of people taking Generic 101 in college have an interest and a talent in the specific material. And because the best students have frequently already APed out, the class really can't compete. Lately, there's been a push in high schools to get more and more marginal students to take AP classes, which has brought down scores and the quality of the classes. In many schools, almost nobody passes AP tests. That's a debate I don't want to get into, but the AP tests are high quality, comprehensive, and fairly difficult to pass (much more so than what's required at State U) .  Having had to sit through plenty of crap I already know just to satisfy requirements, I'm all for being able to test out of as many things as possible.
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angus
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« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2011, 09:11:59 pm »
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My high school was hardcore. My AP classes were a hell of a lot more challenging and rewarding than generic 101 in college.

Students always know what's best for them.  They always assume that they have a basis of comparison and a rational and informed and mature world-view.  This is as true about my kindergarten-age son as it is about my graduate students.  

I can assure you that your professors, by and large, do not consider your AP courses to be perfect substitutes for the courses that they teach.  There are some exceptions, I'm sure.  I myself taught AP calculus and AP chemistry, for two years, after obtaining an MS and before going back to grad school to obtain a PhD, and for a very long time I liked to think that any AP course I taught was as good as any freshman-level course being taught at universities.  But once I began teaching university-level courses I understood that this was not the case.

If it is your goal to blow through college in three years, either because of familial economic considerations or because you simply do not enjoy school or because you see education as a means to an end rather than an end in itself, then by all means you might consider applying AP coursework toward your BS degree.  But if you are a serious about learning, about making the most of your education, then I advise you not to apply your advanced placement coursework as a substitute for university-level education.

I hope I'm in sufficiently sound financial state in which I can encourage my own son to take advantage of his university's offerings, whatever they may be, once he reaches that point in his life.  Certainly I'll encourage him to take as many AP courses as he can handle, but I won't push him to actually take the AP exam, and if he chooses to, I won't push him to try to get credit in college for those exam scores just to save me money.  But parents do differ in their philosophies regarding what they should and shouldn't do, and I wouldn't tell someone else how to raise his children.

But as a university educator, I can assure you that you and your society are much better off appreciating and bragging about that 5 you scored, and hanging on to it, but ultimately enrolling in the all the minutiae of curriculum that your university bulletin suggests.  
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 09:27:36 pm by angus »Logged
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« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2011, 09:23:40 pm »
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A lot of the same tests as a Person, I see.

Sophomore:
European History: 4
World History: 5

Junior:
United States History*: 5
Comparative Government and Politics: 5
English Language and Composition*: 5
Human Geography: 5

* Took the actual class
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« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2011, 09:34:42 pm »
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AP Euro (sophomore): 5
APUSH (junior): 5
WHAP (junior): 5
AP Psych (junior): 5
AP Lang (junior): 4
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« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2011, 09:36:53 pm »
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My high school was hardcore. My AP classes were a hell of a lot more challenging and rewarding than generic 101 in college.

Students always know what's best for them.  They always assume that they have a basis of comparison and a rational and informed and mature world-view.  This is as true about my kindergarten-age son as it is about my graduate students.  

I can assure you that your professors, by and large, do not consider your AP courses to be perfect substitutes for the courses that they teach.  There are some exceptions, I'm sure.  I myself taught AP calculus and AP chemistry, for two years, after obtaining an MS and before going back to grad school to obtain a PhD, and for a very long time I liked to think that any AP course I taught was as good as any freshman-level course being taught at universities.  But once I began teaching university-level courses I understood that this was not the case.

If it is your goal to blow through college in three years, either because of familial economic considerations or because you simply do not enjoy school or because you see education as a means to an end rather than an end in itself, then by all means you might consider applying AP coursework toward your BS degree.  But if you are a serious about learning, about making the most of your education, then I advise you not to apply your advanced placement coursework as a substitute for university-level education.

I hope I'm in financial state in which I can encourage my own son to take advantage of his university's offerings, whatever they may be, once he reaches that point in his life.  Certainly I'll encourage him to take as many AP courses as he can handle, but I won't push him to actually take the AP exam, and if he chooses to, I won't push him to try to get credit in college for those exam scores just to save me money.  But parents do differ in their philosophy regarding what they should and shouldn't do, and I wouldn't tell someone else how to raise his children.

But as a university educator, I can assure you that you are much better off appreciating and bragging about that 5 you scored, and hanging on to it, but ultimately enrolling in the curriculum that your university bulletin suggests.
I'm long through with school and I don't have any kids. I'm not a student, so I don't have a dog in this fight. However, you're way romanticizing college as an experience, greatly overestimating the quality of intro level classes at the average university, and completely discounting the outrageous price of college. If you're at Harvard, by all means, seriously consider if you're ready for the advanced class. However, if after passing an AP exam with a 4 or 5, you're at a state school (with a few exceptions, granted) save yourself the frustration of paying a thousand dollars to share what's essentially a remedial class with 100 hung over frat boys, half of whom shouldn't be at college in the first place. It really isn't that glamorous.
Oh and since everybody is bragging.
Eng Lang 4
US History 5
Eng Lang 5
Euro History 4
French 3
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« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2011, 10:10:32 pm »
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My high school was hardcore. My AP classes were a hell of a lot more challenging and rewarding than generic 101 in college.

Students always know what's best for them.  They always assume that they have a basis of comparison and a rational and informed and mature world-view.  This is as true about my kindergarten-age son as it is about my graduate students.  

I can assure you that your professors, by and large, do not consider your AP courses to be perfect substitutes for the courses that they teach.  There are some exceptions, I'm sure.  I myself taught AP calculus and AP chemistry, for two years, after obtaining an MS and before going back to grad school to obtain a PhD, and for a very long time I liked to think that any AP course I taught was as good as any freshman-level course being taught at universities.  But once I began teaching university-level courses I understood that this was not the case.

If it is your goal to blow through college in three years, either because of familial economic considerations or because you simply do not enjoy school or because you see education as a means to an end rather than an end in itself, then by all means you might consider applying AP coursework toward your BS degree.  But if you are a serious about learning, about making the most of your education, then I advise you not to apply your advanced placement coursework as a substitute for university-level education.

I hope I'm in financial state in which I can encourage my own son to take advantage of his university's offerings, whatever they may be, once he reaches that point in his life.  Certainly I'll encourage him to take as many AP courses as he can handle, but I won't push him to actually take the AP exam, and if he chooses to, I won't push him to try to get credit in college for those exam scores just to save me money.  But parents do differ in their philosophy regarding what they should and shouldn't do, and I wouldn't tell someone else how to raise his children.

But as a university educator, I can assure you that you are much better off appreciating and bragging about that 5 you scored, and hanging on to it, but ultimately enrolling in the curriculum that your university bulletin suggests.
I'm long through with school and I don't have any kids. I'm not a student, so I don't have a dog in this fight. However, you're way romanticizing college as an experience, greatly overestimating the quality of intro level classes at the average university, and completely discounting the outrageous price of college. If you're at Harvard, by all means, seriously consider if you're ready for the advanced class. However, if after passing an AP exam with a 4 or 5, you're at a state school (with a few exceptions, granted) save yourself the frustration of paying a thousand dollars to share what's essentially a remedial class with 100 hung over frat boys, half of whom shouldn't be at college in the first place. It really isn't that glamorous.
Oh and since everybody is bragging.
Eng Lang 4
US History 5
Eng Lang 5
Euro History 4
French 3

Especially since the Ivy Leagues almost accept no AP test even for 5s and when they do it usually only counts toward and elective if you're in a different major/concentration area
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angus
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« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2011, 10:20:25 pm »
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My high school was hardcore. My AP classes were a hell of a lot more challenging and rewarding than generic 101 in college.

Students always know what's best for them.  They always assume that they have a basis of comparison and a rational and informed and mature world-view.  This is as true about my kindergarten-age son as it is about my graduate students.  

I can assure you that your professors, by and large, do not consider your AP courses to be perfect substitutes for the courses that they teach.  There are some exceptions, I'm sure.  I myself taught AP calculus and AP chemistry, for two years, after obtaining an MS and before going back to grad school to obtain a PhD, and for a very long time I liked to think that any AP course I taught was as good as any freshman-level course being taught at universities.  But once I began teaching university-level courses I understood that this was not the case.

If it is your goal to blow through college in three years, either because of familial economic considerations or because you simply do not enjoy school or because you see education as a means to an end rather than an end in itself, then by all means you might consider applying AP coursework toward your BS degree.  But if you are a serious about learning, about making the most of your education, then I advise you not to apply your advanced placement coursework as a substitute for university-level education.

I hope I'm in financial state in which I can encourage my own son to take advantage of his university's offerings, whatever they may be, once he reaches that point in his life.  Certainly I'll encourage him to take as many AP courses as he can handle, but I won't push him to actually take the AP exam, and if he chooses to, I won't push him to try to get credit in college for those exam scores just to save me money.  But parents do differ in their philosophy regarding what they should and shouldn't do, and I wouldn't tell someone else how to raise his children.

But as a university educator, I can assure you that you are much better off appreciating and bragging about that 5 you scored, and hanging on to it, but ultimately enrolling in the curriculum that your university bulletin suggests.
I'm long through with school and I don't have any kids. I'm not a student, so I don't have a dog in this fight. However, you're way romanticizing college as an experience, greatly overestimating the quality of intro level classes at the average university, and completely discounting the outrageous price of college. If you're at Harvard, by all means, seriously consider if you're ready for the advanced class. However, if after passing an AP exam with a 4 or 5, you're at a state school (with a few exceptions, granted) save yourself the frustration of paying a thousand dollars to share what's essentially a remedial class with 100 hung over frat boys, half of whom shouldn't be at college in the first place. It really isn't that glamorous.
Oh and since everybody is bragging.
Eng Lang 4
US History 5
Eng Lang 5
Euro History 4
French 3

I'm not discounting the cost.  I'll admit that I'm naive.  My son is just about to start the first grade, so I really don't know what it's like to have a child come home and say, "Dad, I've been accepted into Princeton." and sit there not knowing whether to say, "Ah, great son." or beat my head wondering where I'm going to come up with the 150 thousand dollars to put him through four years of a private school.  We have started preparing for that, and like I said, I envision a smooth future, but you never know.  so at this point it's easy for me to say, "hey, don't take shortcuts."

Still, ignoring all that, and looking solely at the actual knowledge you gain from an "advanced placement" course, which in my opinion ought to be what any college-bound student deserves from the regular public courses in public high school, I'd say you're better off not opting out of those freshman-level courses.  I know not only from my own experiences with students who have placed out of freshman level courses, but also from many conversations with colleagues from all around the country, that they are not the good substitutes that the AP folks had hoped they would be.  

In the case of the physical sciences, it's mostly the empirical components that are missing.  Most high schools simply do not have the instrumentation and the computer software that you find in universities in the freshman-level science courses.  And that's the biggest deficiency that you see in sophomore-level students who have placed out of the freshman-level courses.  And that's becoming an even greater problem with the move toward emphasizing 'guided inquiry' style learring that has become fashionable in US freshman-level science courses.  But even before this, it was obvious, listening to physics and chemistry profs that I'd meet at Gordon conferences and such back when I was a grad student, that the general feeling was that the AP students were not as well prepared as their peers when they were placed in sophomore-level courses.  This is also the case, in my observation, when it comes to transfers from two-year colleges when they take junior-level university courses.  Not that we shouldn't admit them, but it's painfully obvious when I teach quantum mechanics who took three semesters of calculus here and who took them at Des Moines area Community College.  But that's a different issue and I'm not sure if there's an easy solution.  As for the AP issue, there's an easy solution.

It has been pointed out that there are many schools that will not give you credit for AP courses for your scores.  Good for them.  It is my desire that all schools would follow their lead.  Moreover, I think much of the pressure for Advanced placement comes from economic considerations.  It's a fact that many parents have a stake in getting their children through university as quickly as possible.  Tuition is costly, after all, and increasing faster than most other goods and services.  It's tremendous pressure to put on people.  I can't fault the parents for that, in and of itself, since I haven't walked a mile in their moccasins.  Yet.  But I have no doubt that their child's socialization and education, both formal and informal, suffers as a result of such pressure.  

I still say that if you can afford it, take it in stride.  I"m certainly not romanticizing the university experience.  It's a great time.  I would not want to shorten mine.  I loved college so much that I stayed in school even long after I graduated.  I realize that not everyone enjoys school as much as I, but it remains a fact that it devalues your school's reputation every time someone sends into the world claiming to possess the knowledge it professes, who hasn't internalized that knowledge because he or she has been convinced that he is just, as you say, "sitting through courses to satisfy some requirement."  Or, worse, not sitting through those courses.  

« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 10:36:16 pm by angus »Logged
A-Bob
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« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2011, 10:21:10 pm »
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World History* 5
Gov't and Politics 5

*Actually took the class

I didn't take the government and politics test and only read the prep guide the week before and that was the extend of my studying. I was in a classroom with 40 seniors, I'm only a sophomore, er was, at a school far away. They all were writing for their essays until time was called and I had an hour to spare and got a 5... I did manage to drag one friend down with me but she only got a 1.

Hopefully this is what I'll take in the future

Junior
US History*
English Lang and Comp*
Psychology

Luckily I won't be taking AP Spanish!

Senior
English Lit and Comp*
Microeconomics*
Comparative Gov't and Politics*
Calculus BC*
Statistics*
European History (May or not be a class my senior year, we're trying to get it)

Looks like I'll be busy senior year, though Economics and Comparative Politics are only semester courses at our school
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« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2011, 10:32:01 pm »
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My school only offered AP Euro in Sophomore year and I got a 5.  It was not my plan to use it because I got full tuition, but I did end up using it after dropping a class with a professor I loathed. It counted as an elective.

Angus, work your way up to Princeton mang.  Don't uni profs kids get in free where they lecture?
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« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2011, 10:35:10 pm »
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APs!  I took one in 2006, two in 2007 and four in 2008.  perfect multiplicative.  bought me 21 credits here at Cornell so I only needed 99 spread over 4 semesters: I have less than 24 left to the magic number of 120, but 12 per semester are needed to mainitain full-time student status without which I'd lose coverage on my Dad's City of New York Teachers' Unions are so f'ing Evil health plan, so we wouldn't want that. Chris Christie might even empathise.
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« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2011, 10:44:14 pm »
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Angus, work your way up to Princeton mang.  Don't uni profs kids get in free where they lecture?

um, don't tell nobody, but I'm not sure I want the boy going where I work.  No offense to anybody. 

Actually, where my wife works is probably a better school.  They don't pay their faculty as well, and the teaching load is awfully heavy, but it's a private school and they have 100% tuition reimbursement for the children of faculty.  So if we're still here 12 years from now, and have spent all our money on other pursuits, then that's an option. 

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« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2011, 11:00:09 pm »
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Angus, work your way up to Princeton mang.  Don't uni profs kids get in free where they lecture?

um, don't tell nobody, but I'm not sure I want the boy going where I work.  No offense to anybody. 

Actually, where my wife works is probably a better school.  They don't pay their faculty as well, and the teaching load is awfully heavy, but it's a private school and they have 100% tuition reimbursement for the children of faculty.  So if we're still here 12 years from now, and have spent all our money on other pursuits, then that's an option. 



^Fwd: Dear Dean Wormer....

Now I know it is too early to tell where your son's choice of study may be, however, it is tough to turn up a freebee on what could be a 200k endeavor by then.  Your son probably also is on his way toward punching his own ticket.  Having bright, educated parents helps enormously.  Plant a cabbage get a cabbage.

I almost got left back in bleeding kindergarten.  Thankfully, I was able to climb my way up the ladder.
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« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2011, 11:56:30 am »
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APs!  I took one in 2006, two in 2007 and four in 2008.  perfect multiplicative.  bought me 21 credits here at Cornell so I only needed 99 spread over 4 semesters: I have less than 24 left to the magic number of 120, but 12 per semester are needed to mainitain full-time student status without which I'd lose coverage on my Dad's City of New York Teachers' Unions are so f'ing Evil health plan, so we wouldn't want that. Chris Christie might even empathise.

New York not Iowa right? Wink

My sister goes to Cornell. What's your major?
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« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2011, 06:36:33 pm »
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APs!  I took one in 2006, two in 2007 and four in 2008.  perfect multiplicative.  bought me 21 credits here at Cornell so I only needed 99 spread over 4 semesters: I have less than 24 left to the magic number of 120, but 12 per semester are needed to mainitain full-time student status without which I'd lose coverage on my Dad's City of New York Teachers' Unions are so f'ing Evil health plan, so we wouldn't want that. Chris Christie might even empathise.

New York not Iowa right? Wink

My sister goes to Cornell. What's your major?

Industrial and Labor Relations
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« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2011, 07:11:07 pm »
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The only AP class I have taken was World History.  Got a 4.  I'll take US History next year.
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« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2011, 05:47:59 pm »
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AP? Pfft.

I'm amazed I am the first IB representative. Though I managed to get screwed since the US for some reason is way behind in recognizing the IB programme (I blame pressure from CollegeBoard, the bast*rds).

IB classes:
Psychology
History of the Americas
History of the 20th Century
English
Spanish
Theory of Knowledge
Biology
Discrete Mathematics
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« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2011, 07:47:37 pm »
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I'm amazed I am the first IB representative. Though I managed to get screwed since the US for some reason is way behind in recognizing the IB programme (I blame pressure from CollegeBoard, the bast*rds).

IB classes:
Psychology
History of the Americas
History of the 20th Century
English
Spanish
Theory of Knowledge
Biology
Discrete Mathematics

Hmm hmm. I was in IB too! Graduated in May 2010. I took Bio HL, Math Studies, both histories you mentioned, French and ITGS. How did you do on your exams and your EE/TOK essay? I got 37/45 points overall, which I'm very proud of (quite a bit above school/world average). I ended up with a 7 in History which was cool because the May 2010 History exam was really tough.

I found IB's toughness overrated a bit. Sure, it was stressful and a bit heavy at times (Bio was especially bad for me, I suck at it) but overall it's not that bad. I never once pulled an all-nighter or anything insane like that. CAS stressed me out a bit, but everybody in the school massively frauded those hours so I frauded them too (I got hours for 'walking to school'). Deadlines were quite soft in my school (within reasonable limits). The EE was a piece of cake if you had a good topic, a helpful supervisor and some basic knowledge. I pulled off top marks on my EE.

My uni gave me 12 credits (4 courses) from IB (6 English, 6 History), which means I didn't have to suffer  the mandatory useless pathetic English courses in first year.
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« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2012, 02:54:45 pm »
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Tis the season to update this.

Sophomore:
World History: 5
Government and Politics*: 5

Junior: (Current year)
English Lang:
US History

Senior:
Calc BC
English Lit
Comparative Politics*
Microeconomics*
European History*

Our counselors are evil and have piled all the single class AP classes on top of one another, too dumb to realize a kid in one AP class, probably will be wanting to take another AP class. So I'm taking CP, economics and Euro outside of school, filling up my transcript schedule with busy-work electives.
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« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2012, 03:21:56 pm »
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So I just finished my AP US History test. It was actually quite easy, and I think I killed the DBQ.
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« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2012, 03:46:28 pm »
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Human Geography
US History
World History
US Government
Comparative Government
Biology
Chemistry
Environmental Science
Calculus BC
English Literature
English Language
Macoreconomics
Spanish Language
Microeconomics
Statistics
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« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2012, 04:03:05 pm »
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AP Euro (sophomore): 5
APUSH (junior): 5
WHAP (junior): 5
AP Psych (junior): 5
AP Lang (junior): 4
AP Environmental (senior)
AP Lit (senior)
AP US Government (senior)
AP Comp Government (senior)
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« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2012, 04:08:08 pm »
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I'd take more AP science (Chem, Bio, etc) courses if we weren't required to do a science fair project. Tongue
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Psychic Octopus
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« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2012, 05:02:28 pm »
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Sophomore: None; My school does not offer Sophomore AP classes.

Junior: US History, World History (self-study), Biology, Psychology, English Language.

Senior: US Government, Comparative Government (will self-study), German (will self-study), Microeconomics, Macroeconomics, Physics, English Literature.
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Yelnoc
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« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2012, 05:05:48 pm »
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So I just finished my AP US History test. It was actually quite easy, and I think I killed the DBQ.

Seconded, I'm hoping for a 5.
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