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| | |-+  2004 U.S. Presidential Election Results (Moderator: True Federalist)
| | | |-+  The truth comes out
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Author Topic: The truth comes out  (Read 2268 times)
Whacker77
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« on: December 07, 2004, 01:41:48 pm »
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For nearly a month, fringe candidate, David Cobb, has said he wanted a recount in Ohio only to ensure that every vote was counted.  In no way was he attempting to overturn the results of the state.  Oh how times have changed in the world of Keith Olbermann and David Cobb.

In an interview with Sam Donaldson, the lifelong loser admitted that overturning the result in Ohio was his real goal.  Due to his efforts, John Kerry could become the president.  He relished the idea of being kingmaker even though he only received 24 votes in the state of Ohio.

As each of you know, I have consistently been against this stupid idea.  First, it's totally petty.  Second, it's a waste of Ohio's money.  Third, the result has been certified and 99.9% of the country has accepted the outcome.  In short, David Cobb needs to get a life and return to reality.

What concerns me more are the legal questions that arise from this recount.  In 2000, the Supreme Court stopped the recount process because adequate legal challenges to the process couldn't be completed before the safe harbor rule.  This year that date occured last night at midnight.

The Ohio Supreme Court should block any recount for president based on the reasoning set forth in Bush v Gore.   Any recount process could endanger the state's desire to meet the safe harbor exemption.  Ceratainly, all questions about the state would have to be settled by that date.  That can't be accomplished now because the date has already passed.  Any further action could cause a constitutional crisis.

For the last month, I have railed against the stupidity of this recount.  I have received complaints about my position, but the words of Cobb yesterday proved me right.  There never was any altruistic reason for his request.  He wanted publicity for himself and he wanted to create a cloud over Bush's reelection.  To be honest, I have believed from the start that he was always a stalking horse for Kerry.

The Christmas holidays should not be ruined by the likes of some petty little man like David Cobb.
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Sam Spade
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« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2004, 01:49:45 pm »
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Yes, the Green Party has essentially acted as a surrogate of the Democrat Party this year.  If they didn't, they wouldn't have seen their vote decline so much this year (whether you add in Nader or not).

This is news, how?
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ill ind
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« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2004, 02:50:56 pm »
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  That 24 vote total for Cobb is incorrect.  In the certified figures released yeaterday Cobb's total jumps to 186.  Perhapshe figures that his vote will increase exponentially every time there is a recount and maybe after the 6th recount or so he will overtake Bush.
  As somebody who often supports third parties and the concept of having a thrid party, if makes me angry to see one doing the dirty work for one of the majors.  If the Dems want a recount to overturn the results, then come out in the open and do it!!!!!

Ill Ind
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jfern
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« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2004, 04:40:11 pm »
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How'd it waste Ohio's money?
1. They did a sh**tty job with the voting - people waiting until 3 AM to vote, sh**tty ballots in Cuyahoga county
2. Cobb has to pay the costs, anyways

Why don't you want every vote to be counted? You're against democracy.
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ill ind
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« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2004, 04:56:25 pm »
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  The recount is a waste of Ohio's money.  By law Cobb only has to come up with $10 per precinct, which is far under the actual cost of the recount.
  If it were a 1000 vote difference, I can see the wisdom of a recount, but I can't belive you can overturn 118,000 votes.

Ill Ind
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Whacker77
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« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2004, 05:00:07 pm »
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There were long lines all over the country.  That argument's weak and just plain pathetic.  As for those who waited until 3 AM on election to vote, so what.  They still got to vote and their vote was counted.  Voting is not a right, it's a reward.  That's why convicted felons are removed from the voting roles.

As for David Cobb, that little weasel's not paying for the whole thing and you know it.  He's paying $10 a precinct.  It's Ohio's fault because the law was created in 1950.  It was not updated to reflect today's costs.  He'll pay $113,000 dollars while the state picks up the rest of the $1.5 to $2.0 million tab.  That's really fair for a state suffering through economic hardships.

You can whine about long lines all you want.  In fact, I know a few who actually think long lines equal fraud.  Their names are Keith Olbermann and Jesse Jackson.  One's an idiot who thinks Homeland Security operatives acted as poll workers in Ohio to help steal the vote for Bush.  The other's a shakedown artist maskerading as a non-partisan minister.

This whole thing is a sham and I suspect it will occur in each and every election to come.  Al Gore started this mess in Florida and he suffered for it in public perception.  Now, democrats are using third parties to do their dirty work.  John Kerry conceded and Bush was certified the winner in Ohio by 118,775 votes, not 118 votes.  Move on and stop being sore losers consumed by crazy conspiracy theories.
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rbt48
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2004, 11:03:02 am »
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How'd it waste Ohio's money?
1. They did a sh**tty job with the voting - people waiting until 3 AM to vote, sh**tty ballots in Cuyahoga county
2. Cobb has to pay the costs, anyways

Why don't you want every vote to be counted? You're against democracy.
Where do you get your unconventional ideas?  The profanity is inappropriate (in my mind).  And your signature block is a fantasy.  Ohio was not stolen.  Kerry just lost it.  Accept it; its reality.  Like my first wife left me; like our dog died.  These things happen in life.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2004, 09:48:09 am by rbt48 »Logged

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« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2004, 12:07:36 am »
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Voting is not a right, it's a reward.  That's why convicted felons are removed from the voting roles.

That's not true at all. Voting is a right. You don't have to do anything to vote other than follow some procedural guidlines (registration, etc.). Like many rights, it can be taken away if you break the law. (Other such rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.)

Compare with driving, which is in no way a right but a reward instead.
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The Vorlon
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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2004, 01:53:40 pm »
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Personally, I have no problem with counting every last single ballot, count them twice, or even 3 times.... I really don't care...

The REAL issue is that we have to have CLEAR set of standards as to what a "vote" actually is, and what a registered voter is.

As somebody who has actually been in the room counting ballots, I can tell you first hand that voters do strange things with their ballots, and there are ballots where "there clear intent of the voter" can be what ever a partisan person wants it to be.

Just a few examples that come to mind:

A voter circles or underlines the name of Candidate "Y" but does not actually make an "X" or "line" on the ballot...?

Is this a vote for "Y"...?

A voter crosses off the name of one candidate, but again makes no "X" or "line" on the ballot...

Is this a "vote"....?

A voter circles "X" on the ballot but then puts then marks there ballot next to "Y"...

Is this a vote for "X" or "Y" or neither, or both...?

The combinations are endless...

These are not unusual cases by the way, in a ballot box of 1000 votes it is not unusual to have a couple dozen that are "unusual" in some way...

Here is my proposal to end all the fuss...

1) Registration ends 30 days before the election.  To register you must produce 2 pieces of picture ID, OR be swore in by somebody with 2 piecces of ID who will personally and legally vouch for your identity. 

The false swearing in or vouching for a voter gets you 10 years in jail. (ie if you say somebody is indeed "x" and it turns out to be false, you go to jail) - WE enforce this rule with ZERO tollerance.

2) A list of all registered voters is published 21 days before the election.  The list is on the internet, available at government offices, etc.  There is a 24 hour a day 1-800 number where you can also phone in and verify that you are registered.  You have 1 week to clear things (address, clerical errors, etc) up if you are not on the list.

3) Everybody brings 2 pieces of ID to vote, OR are sworn in by somebody with 2 pieces (same punishment if you say you can verify somebody is indeed "X" when they turn out to be "Y"

4) Everybody votes via optical scanner.

5) Before you leave, you scan your ballot with a "test" scanner, which will show you who you have voted for. 

If your ballot does not scan, you get to correct or replace your ballot.  After you have verified that the machine correctly reads your ballot, you give it to the poll worker who places it in the ballot box.

6) If the optical scanner cannot read your ballot after it is deposited, it is a null and void vote.

All that is needed is a desire to fix the system... it's easy...
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ThePrezMex
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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2004, 02:47:21 pm »
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I agree with all your recommendations Vorlon! especially the ones about the registration process. It is not that hard. That's how it is done in other countries, specifically Mexico, where we have really eliminated all voting controversies.
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Akno21
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« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2004, 03:35:32 pm »
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We need a federal standard. There's too many varities of voting systems.
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farewell
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« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2004, 10:17:58 am »
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A voter circles or underlines the name of Candidate "Y" but does not actually make an "X" or "line" on the ballot...?

Is this a vote for "Y"...?
Yes.
Quote
A voter crosses off the name of one candidate, but again makes no "X" or "line" on the ballot...

Is this a "vote"....?
Uh...depends on what the guideline says. Smiley
Quote
A voter circles "X" on the ballot but then puts then marks there ballot next to "Y"...

Is this a vote for "X" or "Y" or neither, or both...?
Overvote.
Quote
The combinations are endless...

These are not unusual cases by the way, in a ballot box of 1000 votes it is not unusual to have a couple dozen that are "unusual" in some way...
Now that's an overstatement. Although I've noticed that, here in Germany, there are more "funny" ballots in working class areas than in more white-collar precincts.
Quote
Here is my proposal to end all the fuss...

1) Registration ends 30 days before the election.  To register you must produce 2 pieces of picture ID, OR be swore in by somebody with 2 piecces of ID who will personally and legally vouch for your identity. 

The false swearing in or vouching for a voter gets you 10 years in jail. (ie if you say somebody is indeed "x" and it turns out to be false, you go to jail) - WE enforce this rule with ZERO tollerance.

2) A list of all registered voters is published 21 days before the election.  The list is on the internet, available at government offices, etc.  There is a 24 hour a day 1-800 number where you can also phone in and verify that you are registered.  You have 1 week to clear things (address, clerical errors, etc) up if you are not on the list.

3) Everybody brings 2 pieces of ID to vote, OR are sworn in by somebody with 2 pieces (same punishment if you say you can verify somebody is indeed "X" when they turn out to be "Y"
On the whole, this is rather too complicated. Part 2 is exactly as it should be, though. If there are any inclarities about your registration, government should not have the right to remove you from the list without having successfully contacted you first. breaching this rule should also mean jail.

Quote
4) Everybody votes via optical scanner.

5) Before you leave, you scan your ballot with a "test" scanner, which will show you who you have voted for. 

If your ballot does not scan, you get to correct or replace your ballot.  After you have verified that the machine correctly reads your ballot, you give it to the poll worker who places it in the ballot box.

6) If the optical scanner cannot read your ballot after it is deposited, it is a null and void vote.
A rather weak replacement for a paper ballot...

Quote
All that is needed is a desire to fix the system... it's easy...
There is no desire to fix the system, however...
Some more points that need to be addressed:
There will have to be uniform standards of registration, ballot design etc across the voting area (state, in the case of elector ["presidential"] elections.)
Given the many, many things Americans are allowed to vote on, a purely hand counted paper ballot will be impractical. I'd advocate some sort of machine-readable paper ballot (such as the optical scan thing Vorlon lines out) with all ballots in all elections machine counted on election night and hand counted in the two weeks after.
The hand count result is the valid official result. The election night coutn is for information value only.
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I may conceivably reconsider.

Knowing me it's more likely than not.
Will F.D. People
bgrieser
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« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2004, 10:42:38 am »
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The problem with hand counted ballots is they are very, very prone to fraud.

In the old days, a crooked ballot counter could put a pencil lead under his fingernail. He could use the concealed lead to add a vote for his candidate to blank ballots. For ballots that voted for another candidate, he could spoil those ballots. In other words he could turn undervotes into votes for his guy and he could turn votes for the other guy into overvotes.

With modern ballots, the same thing applies. A crooked hand-counter could add punches to punch cards or mark optical ballots while counting them.

Personally I trust machines to count ballots a lot more than I trust people.
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farewell
Lewis Trondheim
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« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2004, 10:51:33 am »
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Hand counting is used all over Europe.
And we don't have your problems.
And yes, no coincidence.
Obviously, always having several people, with different political views, around at the count helps. Smiley
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I may conceivably reconsider.

Knowing me it's more likely than not.
MODU
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« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2004, 06:10:58 pm »
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We need a federal standard. There's too many varities of voting systems.

FINALLY!  Someone with a head on their shoulders. 

I've been saying this for years, even before the 2000 fiasco.  Add on top of this all the election reform points I've listed in the past, and things should go much smoother in the future.
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dca5347
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2004, 12:22:24 pm »
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Personally, I have no problem with counting every last single ballot, count them twice, or even 3 times.... I really don't care...

The REAL issue is that we have to have CLEAR set of standards as to what a "vote" actually is, and what a registered voter is.

As somebody who has actually been in the room counting ballots, I can tell you first hand that voters do strange things with their ballots, and there are ballots where "there clear intent of the voter" can be what ever a partisan person wants it to be.

Just a few examples that come to mind:

A voter circles or underlines the name of Candidate "Y" but does not actually make an "X" or "line" on the ballot...?

Is this a vote for "Y"...?

A voter crosses off the name of one candidate, but again makes no "X" or "line" on the ballot...

Is this a "vote"....?

A voter circles "X" on the ballot but then puts then marks there ballot next to "Y"...

Is this a vote for "X" or "Y" or neither, or both...?

The combinations are endless...

These are not unusual cases by the way, in a ballot box of 1000 votes it is not unusual to have a couple dozen that are "unusual" in some way...

Here is my proposal to end all the fuss...

1) Registration ends 30 days before the election.  To register you must produce 2 pieces of picture ID, OR be swore in by somebody with 2 piecces of ID who will personally and legally vouch for your identity. 

The false swearing in or vouching for a voter gets you 10 years in jail. (ie if you say somebody is indeed "x" and it turns out to be false, you go to jail) - WE enforce this rule with ZERO tollerance.

2) A list of all registered voters is published 21 days before the election.  The list is on the internet, available at government offices, etc.  There is a 24 hour a day 1-800 number where you can also phone in and verify that you are registered.  You have 1 week to clear things (address, clerical errors, etc) up if you are not on the list.

3) Everybody brings 2 pieces of ID to vote, OR are sworn in by somebody with 2 pieces (same punishment if you say you can verify somebody is indeed "X" when they turn out to be "Y"

4) Everybody votes via optical scanner.

5) Before you leave, you scan your ballot with a "test" scanner, which will show you who you have voted for. 

If your ballot does not scan, you get to correct or replace your ballot.  After you have verified that the machine correctly reads your ballot, you give it to the poll worker who places it in the ballot box.

6) If the optical scanner cannot read your ballot after it is deposited, it is a null and void vote.

All that is needed is a desire to fix the system... it's easy...

All of these safe guards would have people voting for days.Ofcourse maybe the election should take a week,and be a paid holiday(Lord I would love that)
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Just because something is politically convenient,Doesn't mean that I don't believe in it
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