20 Hour Work Week
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 19, 2024, 02:34:55 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  Economics (Moderator: Torie)
  20 Hour Work Week
« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6
Author Topic: 20 Hour Work Week  (Read 11902 times)
Gustaf
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,767


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2011, 09:24:34 AM »

There's obviously a reason why 40 hours is the norm in most workplaces - lower than that wouldn't be efficient and people don't want to work more than that, given how much money they earn nowadays.
Logged
opebo
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 47,010


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2011, 09:29:27 AM »

There's obviously a reason why 40 hours is the norm in most workplaces - lower than that wouldn't be efficient and people don't want to work more than that, given how much money they earn nowadays.

Actually more than 40 hours is the norm in the USA, Gustaf.  But being efficient is not an important criteria.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,846
Ireland, Republic of


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2011, 09:30:36 AM »

If only we decided to lower our expectations... (Actually this sentence could be said about practically any major issue concerning 'the economy'). And I would add, not just expectations in regards to consumer goods but the lot...
Logged
opebo
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 47,010


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2011, 09:33:24 AM »

If only we decided to lower our expectations... (Actually this sentence could be said about practically any major issue concerning 'the economy'). And I would add, not just expectations in regards to consumer goods but the lot...

Actually there is no need to lower expectations - the main point of the 20 hour work week would be the salubrious economic effects of increasing payment-for-labor.  The humane and enjoyable life one could lead with more time off is just a bonus.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,846
Ireland, Republic of


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2011, 09:44:19 AM »

Opebo, I have to say I greatly admire the rather unique relationship you have with 'reality' (whatever it is. I'm using the common definion). I think it is quite special in a perverse way. Keep up the good work (or something to that effect).

Actually, I'd reckon if we went to a 20 hour week quite a few people would lose their minds with that spare time. But that's just me (I, who worries that should the economy (in Ireland) improve, certain people would begin to lose their minds due to not having anything to talk about any more except the weather).
Logged
opebo
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 47,010


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2011, 09:59:46 AM »

Opebo, I have to say I greatly admire the rather unique relationship you have with 'reality' (whatever it is. I'm using the common definion). I think it is quite special in a perverse way. Keep up the good work (or something to that effect).

My friend, reality is that we have a dearth of demand, not a dearth of 'efficiency'.

Actually, I'd reckon if we went to a 20 hour week quite a few people would lose their minds with that spare time.

That is the most disturbing thing I've ever heard, and I've heard it before from others - I find work such a huge inconvenience -there are a million things I would do with every day if I didn't have to work.  That there are people with such sad, circumscribed lives that they couldn't fill a day with fun makes me physically ill to think about.
Logged
Gustaf
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,767


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2011, 12:15:57 PM »

Opebo, I have to say I greatly admire the rather unique relationship you have with 'reality' (whatever it is. I'm using the common definion). I think it is quite special in a perverse way. Keep up the good work (or something to that effect).

My friend, reality is that we have a dearth of demand, not a dearth of 'efficiency'.

Actually, I'd reckon if we went to a 20 hour week quite a few people would lose their minds with that spare time.

That is the most disturbing thing I've ever heard, and I've heard it before from others - I find work such a huge inconvenience -there are a million things I would do with every day if I didn't have to work.  That there are people with such sad, circumscribed lives that they couldn't fill a day with fun makes me physically ill to think about.

Why all the bigotry? Does it really worry you so much that other people might find enjoyment in different ways than you do?
Logged
opebo
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 47,010


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2011, 02:50:09 PM »

Opebo, I have to say I greatly admire the rather unique relationship you have with 'reality' (whatever it is. I'm using the common definion). I think it is quite special in a perverse way. Keep up the good work (or something to that effect).

My friend, reality is that we have a dearth of demand, not a dearth of 'efficiency'.

Actually, I'd reckon if we went to a 20 hour week quite a few people would lose their minds with that spare time.

That is the most disturbing thing I've ever heard, and I've heard it before from others - I find work such a huge inconvenience -there are a million things I would do with every day if I didn't have to work.  That there are people with such sad, circumscribed lives that they couldn't fill a day with fun makes me physically ill to think about.

Why all the bigotry? Does it really worry you so much that other people might find enjoyment in different ways than you do?

Not at all Gusaf, the point was that they apparently can't find anything else to do.  I'm pretty sure Mikado wasn't saying that they 'enjoy their work' - after all very few do - but rather that they have no idea how to enjoy themselves.
Logged
© tweed
Miamiu1027
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 36,563
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2011, 03:22:47 PM »

many subsistence economies long before our industrial or even civilized age(s) began had "work weeks" much shorter than 40 hours.  of course back then "work" and "life" were not separate spheres.
Logged
opebo
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 47,010


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2011, 04:11:06 PM »

many subsistence economies long before our industrial or even civilized age(s) began had "work weeks" much shorter than 40 hours.  of course back then "work" and "life" were not separate spheres.

A worthwhile observation, Tweed, and a clue as to why everyone (except of course the rich) is so terribly miserable in the modern world.
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,590
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2011, 05:27:51 PM »

Yeah, and they spent as much of the winter as they could asleep, and with good reason.
Logged
Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,489
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2011, 07:03:29 PM »

I would go completely out of my brain with boredom...
Logged
Gustaf
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 29,767


Political Matrix
E: 0.39, S: -0.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2011, 08:05:20 AM »

many subsistence economies long before our industrial or even civilized age(s) began had "work weeks" much shorter than 40 hours.  of course back then "work" and "life" were not separate spheres.

A worthwhile observation, Tweed, and a clue as to why everyone (except of course the rich) is so terribly miserable in the modern world.

It is rare to see someone seriously advocate a return to stone age. Anyway, there's nothing stopping you guys from living out in the jungle munching roots and reverting to an expected life-span of 30 years or something if you really want to.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,846
Ireland, Republic of


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2011, 09:19:17 AM »

many subsistence economies long before our industrial or even civilized age(s) began had "work weeks" much shorter than 40 hours.  of course back then "work" and "life" were not separate spheres.

That is of course true. But what is to be done about it?
Logged
opebo
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 47,010


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #39 on: August 15, 2011, 11:45:49 AM »

Well that makes no sense.  None of my friends would sit on their asses at home for 20 hrs a week.  They would all get second jobs and make twice the amount of money.  I don't think you've thought this through.

I've thought it through Link, and your objection has no bearing whatsoever on the economic or societal effects I stipulated.  Whether the serf uses the extra time (as a rational would do), or as a way to 'make more money' as your friends might do, the effect is improvement in the lives of workers and more importantly an increase in demand.

Yeah, and they spent as much of the winter as they could asleep, and with good reason.

Drafts?

I would go completely out of my brain with boredom...

See, Polnut illustrates my case - he is a tragic figure.  He cannot imagine living.
Logged
opebo
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 47,010


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #40 on: August 15, 2011, 11:50:54 AM »

It is rare to see someone seriously advocate a return to stone age. Anyway, there's nothing stopping you guys from living out in the jungle munching roots and reverting to an expected life-span of 30 years or something if you really want to.

I understand that you cannot read English well, but no one advocated a return to the stone age, gustaf.  He merely noted that people have had shorter work periods in the past.   What was the legal mandate of 40 hours then?  A return to the 16th century?  Your arguments are so irrational and specious one hardly knows how to communicate with you.  There is nothing that precludes both a high-technology economy and a shorter working week.



many subsistence economies long before our industrial or even civilized age(s) began had "work weeks" much shorter than 40 hours.  of course back then "work" and "life" were not separate spheres.

That is of course true. But what is to be done about it?

Obviously legally mandating a shorter work week is what should be done about it.  The work week should always be gradually shrinking, just as wages should always be gradually increasing, and in this way we redistribute productivity increases in a sustainable way.
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,590
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #41 on: August 15, 2011, 12:12:56 PM »

many subsistence economies long before our industrial or even civilized age(s) began had "work weeks" much shorter than 40 hours.  of course back then "work" and "life" were not separate spheres.

That is of course true. But what is to be done about it?

Thing is, no one actually wants to spend their winters shacked up with their relatives in a state of semi-hibernation. As was common in some places as recently as the first half of the nineteenth century, of course. Because that's the sort of thing that's the trade-off for hardly working most of the year (with brief periods of extreme activity). So even if you could do anything about, who would actually want to?
Logged
Torie
Moderator
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,047
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -4.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #42 on: August 15, 2011, 12:13:58 PM »

Is this just for hourly workers or everyone?  If you work more than 20 hours a week, do you go to jail, or get overtime?  I mean if you are going to do a brain fart, at least give it a robust finish - otherwise it's just noisome opebo.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,846
Ireland, Republic of


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #43 on: August 15, 2011, 12:17:38 PM »

many subsistence economies long before our industrial or even civilized age(s) began had "work weeks" much shorter than 40 hours.  of course back then "work" and "life" were not separate spheres.

That is of course true. But what is to be done about it?

Thing is, no one actually wants to spend their winters shacked up with their relatives in a state of semi-hibernation. As was common in some places as recently as the first half of the nineteenth century, of course. Because that's the sort of thing that's the trade-off for hardly working most of the year (with brief periods of extreme activity). So even if you could do anything about, who would actually want to?

That was sort-of my point. If a 20-hr work week was a totally desirable thing then don't we still have it? (Waiting for the next Opebonomics lecture).
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,590
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #44 on: August 15, 2011, 12:23:47 PM »

That was sort-of my point. If a 20-hr work week was a totally desirable thing then don't we still have it? (Waiting for the next Opebonomics lecture).

I thought as much, but 'what is to be done about it?' in that sort of context can be interpreted in different ways.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,846
Ireland, Republic of


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #45 on: August 15, 2011, 12:28:48 PM »

That was sort-of my point. If a 20-hr work week was a totally desirable thing then don't we still have it? (Waiting for the next Opebonomics lecture).

I thought as much, but 'what is to be done about it?' in that sort of context can be interpreted in different ways.

I was aiming for a quick one-liner.
Logged
opebo
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 47,010


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #46 on: August 15, 2011, 12:34:19 PM »

Is this just for hourly workers or everyone?  If you work more than 20 hours a week, do you go to jail, or get overtime?  I mean if you are going to do a brain fart, at least give it a robust finish - otherwise it's just noisome opebo.

I'll ignore the offensive tone of your post and answer you in good spirit.

Obviously there is no reason to accept distinctions between 'hourly workers' and others, Torie.  
As for working more than 20 hours, I would find it quite dangerous to allow this, since there would be huge potential for coercion (in other words it would be hard to know if the toiler actually 'wanted' to toil in excess, though I suppose that the threat involved - firing - would be impossible in my ideal world anyway, so the point is moot).  Since outright banning could be problematic, probably the best deterrent would be to make the 'overtime' at least double or triple the normal rate, and also exact a large tax - more of a fine really - upon same.

That was sort-of my point. If a 20-hr work week was a totally desirable thing then don't we still have it? (Waiting for the next Opebonomics lecture).

No need for a lecture, GF - obviously the owners wanted to work their serfs more.
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,590
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #47 on: August 15, 2011, 12:39:49 PM »

Define 'serf'.
Logged
Torie
Moderator
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,047
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -3.48, S: -4.70

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2011, 12:41:49 PM »

IC.  Well, the solution of course, is to just ship your jobs overseas that are hourly, and for salary earners, well they won't keep time sheets. I assume it would be illegal of course to hold two jobs as well. Probably most corporate headquarters and E suite folks, will have to move to England or Canada or something. Hollyweird will have to leave too. Those folks work crazy hours.

And I will have to sell my real estate. Quickly.

Sensitive chap aren't you opebo?  
Logged
opebo
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 47,010


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2011, 12:43:52 PM »


It was obviously a rhetorical flourish, Al, but the essential point is I think valid - that the modern wage-slave has a rough equivalency in terms of 'freedom' to the medieval serf, and that the claims to the contrary we constantly hear from the Right are mostly deceptive and blatantly self-serving.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.053 seconds with 12 queries.