Why are poor people poor?

[senatortombstone]

Lately the whole class warfare issue has been played out and discuss by politicians and regular people.  We always hear that such and such disproportionately affects the poor.  I am asking why that is a bad thing.  Why should people be given more or less or have more or less responsibilities because they categorically poor?  I ask why are poor people poor.  Is it their genes, situation, environment, choice or is it at all possibly their <i>own</i> fault?

[opebo]

It is natural to be poor - the difficult thing is to get money.

But seriously, poor people are poor mainly because their parents were poor.

[John Dibble]

Really, like most big issues, there is no one, simple answer.

Some are poor because they are too lazy to do anything about it.
Some are poor because they have mental problems.
Some are poor because they were born poor and never had the resources to get out of being poor.
Some are poor because they are genuinely just down on their luck(got fired and regardless of best effort, couldn't find a new job, something like that).
Some are poor because they can't get over their addictions(alcohol, gambling, crack, whatever).

Of course, there's also this conception that the poor are all miserable. This isn't true. Many are happy, or at the very least content, with their lives - sure they might like a little extra money, but money doesn't buy happiness(if it did there'd be no miserable rich people). Some are indeed miserable. Some are happy in some ways and miserable in others.

Ultimately though, there will always be poor people - as long as there are those that are better off than others, the people with the least will always be considered 'poor'. Even if you elevated everyone's standard of living to the point where the poor live like rich people do now, and rich people live even more luxuriously, the poor will still be considered the poor and the rich the rich.

[opebo]

How are we defining 'poor' here?  I personally define it as one who has no capital, or insufficient capital to live upon the income it provides.

[senatortombstone]

By poor I mean fiscally poor.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The vast majority of poor people are poor because there families are poor or because the economy of the area they live has either collapsed or is seriously underdeveloped.

[Beet]

The vast majority of poor people are poor because there families are poor or because the economy of the area they live has either collapsed or is seriously underdeveloped.

I agree with Al... family income and the community economy are obviously two of the most highly correlated variables in the population. They're also related to what kind of future a young person has. Most people in poor areas with poor families just find it much harder to climb that ladder, and perhaps feel less pressure to do so.

[A18]

If you're born to parents who aren't very educated or capable of doing much, you'll probably be poor until you're 18. After that, it depends on how educated you are, and what you're capable of doing.

[opebo]

If you're born to parents who aren't very educated or capable of doing much, you'll probably be poor until you're 18. After that, it depends on how educated you are, and what you're capable of doing.

It is quite improbable that the children of poor people will be very educated at all.  Even if their public school was capable of providing an education (highly unlikely), how could they attend college?

[John Dibble]

If you're born to parents who aren't very educated or capable of doing much, you'll probably be poor until you're 18. After that, it depends on how educated you are, and what you're capable of doing.

It is quite improbable that the children of poor people will be very educated at all.  Even if their public school was capable of providing an education (highly unlikely), how could they attend college?

Scholarships. That and having high enough SAT scores.

[opebo]

If you're born to parents who aren't very educated or capable of doing much, you'll probably be poor until you're 18. After that, it depends on how educated you are, and what you're capable of doing.

It is quite improbable that the children of poor people will be very educated at all.  Even if their public school was capable of providing an education (highly unlikely), how could they attend college?

Scholarships. That and having high enough SAT scores.

sheesh!  You're only talking about maybe 1-2% of the poor then.  Not a very demographically meaningful method of bootstrapping.

[John Dibble]

If you're born to parents who aren't very educated or capable of doing much, you'll probably be poor until you're 18. After that, it depends on how educated you are, and what you're capable of doing.

It is quite improbable that the children of poor people will be very educated at all.  Even if their public school was capable of providing an education (highly unlikely), how could they attend college?

Scholarships. That and having high enough SAT scores.

sheesh!  You're only talking about maybe 1-2% of the poor then.  Not a very demographically meaningful method of bootstrapping.

Well, you have to consider a couple things - how many are capable of it, and how many want it? A capable student can learn enough in almost any public school, and there's a lot of people who don't even plan on going to college. That changes the numbers quite a bit, doesn't it?

[opebo]

If you're born to parents who aren't very educated or capable of doing much, you'll probably be poor until you're 18. After that, it depends on how educated you are, and what you're capable of doing.

It is quite improbable that the children of poor people will be very educated at all.  Even if their public school was capable of providing an education (highly unlikely), how could they attend college?

Scholarships. That and having high enough SAT scores.

sheesh!  You're only talking about maybe 1-2% of the poor then.  Not a very demographically meaningful method of bootstrapping.

Well, you have to consider a couple things - how many are capable of it, and how many want it? A capable student can learn enough in almost any public school, and there's a lot of people who don't even plan on going to college. That changes the numbers quite a bit, doesn't it?

The important numbers are that the great majority of upper-middle class offspring get a decent education through high school, and then college as a matter of course.  Even graduate school is fairly commonplace among members of this class.

For poor people - say the bottom half of the population - I believe college education is quite difficult to purchase, and in addition they can only afford poor quality housing, usually in areas with public schools that are very inferior to those enjoyed by the upper middle class.  Simple. 

As for the owning class, I'm not really sure it matters if they get an education or not.  In any case they get into (and out of) Yale automatically.

[J. J.]

One thing that you've missed is health problems.  A lot of poor people cannot work for psysical or psychological reasons.

[Alcon]

One thing that you've missed is health problems.  A lot of poor people cannot work for psysical or psychological reasons.

That was said.

I think it is hard to argue that the poor have just as much opportunity as the rich. 1-2% of poor people can get scholarships - what number is that for middle class and rich? Significantly higher. And just because someone is not brilliant does not mean they should have no chance in college.

The thing is that someone at the 70th percentile who is wealthy is pretty much guaranteed a great job. The same person who is poor is guaranteed an extreme struggle.

There isn't much that can be done to change this beyond widen scholarship programs.

[John Dibble]

I disagree that only 1-2% of poor people can get scholarships - you are more able to get a scholarship if you are poor, black, hispanic, ect. I'm an intelligent white male with a mother who makes 80k a year - my chances of attaining scholarships aren't great at all. And I am paying my own way through college. Most scholarships are designed for those who need them.

Now, on widening the scholarship programs, I think Georgia has it right - the HOPE scholarship pays tuition for students who stay in state for college. It's funded completely by the lottery - a nice private sectorish solution - and it applies equally to all students who have a 3.0(B) average or higher on graduating high school. Rich, middle class, or poor - everyone can get it, so it ensures that those with the ability and work ethic to get a 3.0 in high school(which in almost any public school is easy) can afford to go to college.

[patrick1]

Really, like most big issues, there is no one, simple answer.

Some are poor because they are too lazy to do anything about it.
Some are poor because they have mental problems.
Some are poor because they were born poor and never had the resources to get out of being poor.
Some are poor because they are genuinely just down on their luck(got fired and regardless of best effort, couldn't find a new job, something like that).
Some are poor because they can't get over their addictions(alcohol, gambling, crack, whatever).

Of course, there's also this conception that the poor are all miserable. This isn't true. Many are happy, or at the very least content, with their lives - sure they might like a little extra money, but money doesn't buy happiness(if it did there'd be no miserable rich people). Some are indeed miserable. Some are happy in some ways and miserable in others.

Ultimately though, there will always be poor people - as long as there are those that are better off than others, the people with the least will always be considered 'poor'. Even if you elevated everyone's standard of living to the point where the poor live like rich people do now, and rich people live even more luxuriously, the poor will still be considered the poor and the rich the rich.

Great breakdown John D.

[dazzleman]

The real reason for poverty in most cases is thought process.

Those with a positive thought process, who are able to understand what they have to contribute, and what they can expect to get in return, are almost never poor.

Those with a negative thought process and an entitlement mentality, who think they are owed something just for existing, are often poor.

Negative thought processes lead to a downward cycle where the poverty reinforces itself, and then reinforces the negative thoughts.  These thought processes often lead to terrible decisions, like doing things in the wrong order.  Education/job/marriage/children (in that order) becomes children, job (maybe), education (unlikely) and marriage (unlikely).  Life is so much harder when you do things in the wrong order.  Kind of like taking college classes without the prerequisites.  It's a recipe for failure.

[Storebought]

The real reason for poverty in most cases is thought process.

Those with a positive thought process, who are able to understand what they have to contribute, and what they can expect to get in return, are almost never poor.

Those with a negative thought process and an entitlement mentality, who think they are owed something just for existing, are often poor.

Negative thought processes lead to a downward cycle where the poverty reinforces itself, and then reinforces the negative thoughts.  These thought processes often lead to terrible decisions, like doing things in the wrong order.  Education/job/marriage/children (in that order) becomes children, job (maybe), education (unlikely) and marriage (unlikely).  Life is so much harder when you do things in the wrong order.  Kind of like taking college classes without the prerequisites.  It's a recipe for failure.

This is complete bullsh**t! I'm quickly becoming utterly broke, I can't hold off my creditors much longer. I need surgery, but can't afford it and am uninsured. I graduated college last May with a mathematics and physics major, and was one of the top 500 math undergrads in North America, according to the Putnam Competition. I can't find a single damn job, not even a job flipping burgers.

I can contribute a great deal of insight and hard work to an actuarial company, and I'd expect to get $45,000 per year out of it. I'm always hopeful that the next interview will be the one that bails me out.

Also, I'm not married and have no kids (well, none that I know of, anyway).

So, if I have the correct mindset and have done things in the right order so far, why am I poor?

Normally, everything I type is in the spirit of half-jest, but I'm serious about this:

Apply to grad school. It's the typical way for college grads to avoid unemployment for a few months. Or, better, move from MN (or your present location) to a frontier state that will reward your skills.

Just b/c you're having a hard time in one place doesn't mean you will have a hard time everywhere else. I should know, b/c I was in your situation a year ago.

[John Dibble]

Avelaval - I think the question really is meant in terms of poor people who stay poor the majority of their lives. If you have a good work ethic and a good head on your shoulders chances are you won't remain poor.

Attitude does have a lot to do with it for many people. Refuse to give up and you'll prosper in the long run.

[J-Mann]

OK, here's a question: how many of you on this board would consider yourselves poor (the under 18 crowd that still lives with their parents should probably be excluded from this question, but answer if you really feel that your parents and family are poor)?

I think of myself as poor, but it's unavoidable for the time being.  I'm a full-time student with a part-time job, struggling to pay all of my bills each month which include rent, electricity, water, cable, car payment, phone bill, and food.  Granted, I could drop the cable, but then how would I chat with all you nice folks?

I'm poor but I'm happy - and I'll come out of it someday.

[TheWildCard]

Avelaval - I think the question really is meant in terms of poor people who stay poor the majority of their lives. If you have a good work ethic and a good head on your shoulders chances are you won't remain poor.

Attitude does have a lot to do with it for many people. Refuse to give up and you'll prosper in the long run.

Couldn't say it better myself.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Isn't it interesting how quick people are to blame the poor for being poor?

[opebo]

Isn't it interesting how quick people are to blame the poor for being poor?

Yes, they have no idea what they're talking about.

I'd like to make the point that the difference between 'poor' and working class is very minor.  Like Avelaval above, the only thing separating the middle class person from poverty is a very tenuous thing called a job.  So called 'real' jobs - those with benefits and a livable salary - are particularly tenuous, as any private business organization is constantly attempting to minimize the number of such expensive propostions it must maintain. 

It is clear that vast numbers of the middle and upper-middle classes in the US mistakenly identify their economic interests with the owning class, in oppostion to the poor, merely because they presently have one of these tenuous good jobs.  This is a rather pathetically egotistical misreading of economic reality.

Heck, *I* identify with the poor more than these people do, just on the unlikely possibility I will be disinherited.

[dazzleman]

Isn't it interesting how quick people are to blame the poor for being poor?

It depends on the type of poverty.

For some people, poverty is a temporary, circumstantial situation, caused by youth, losing a job, etc.  We are all suseptible to this type of poverty, but it is usually not a chronic state.

But I have known several people who were chronically poor because of their own actions and behavior, so it's not so far-fetched to say that some people are to blame for their own poverty.  I'm talking about people who had decent upbringings and educational opportunities but who, for one reason or another, made bad financial and personal decisions, failed to take advantage of opportunities that they had, and generally blamed other people for the outcome.

My earlier comments were meant to address hard-core chronic poverty, not necessarily less severe forms of it.  I myself have experienced less severe forms of poverty when I was younger, and once when I lost my job. 

But there are some people who, because of their life circumstances, lack of training and education, and in some cases mental problems and addictions, coupled with their refusal and/or failure to take responsibility for changing those circumstances, stand little chance of ever escaping poverty.