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Insula Dei
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« on: June 22, 2011, 03:40:46 pm »
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Thought we should have this.
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2011, 05:07:47 pm »
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Another election
Thaksin people vs. Military, aristocracy and elite.
Now, candidate is Thaksin's sister...
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2011, 05:39:51 pm »

More of an electoral type event than an actual event, though.
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2011, 07:48:27 am »
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I read that polling indicates a Thaksin victory. It is of course dubious whether polling reflects actual public mood and if election results will reflect actual public mood in a country like Thailand. And even then it is even more dubious whether official results will reflect actual results. And finally whether the government will reflect even the official results.

It's a long way to go if you don't have the military behind you in Thailand, it would seem.
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2011, 08:23:25 am »
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Some of what should in a two-party system be the government's people are calling for a boycott.
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2011, 10:23:19 am »
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Some of what should in a two-party system be the government's people are calling for a boycott.

I'm sorry, but is it possible that you missed a word there?
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2011, 10:27:52 am »
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Nope. (Well, it would have been possible. But it is not true.)

They got cool posters, too:

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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2011, 10:49:45 am »
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I now understand your sentence, even if I'll maintain that it could have been phrased more clearly. Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2011, 12:52:33 pm »
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I read that polling indicates a Thaksin victory. It is of course dubious whether polling reflects actual public mood and if election results will reflect actual public mood in a country like Thailand. And even then it is even more dubious whether official results will reflect actual results. And finally whether the government will reflect even the official results.

It's a long way to go if you don't have the military behind you in Thailand, it would seem.

Yeah, basically. There's really not much to see there, it seems.
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2011, 09:43:31 pm »
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It's amusing how everyone here loves Thaksin just because opebo hates him. He's an extremely corrupt, not all that democratic either kleptocrat.
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2011, 09:50:23 pm »

It's amusing how everyone here loves Thaksin just because opebo hates him. He's an extremely corrupt, not all that democratic either kleptocrat.

Who here loves Thaksin?
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2011, 09:56:16 pm »
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Gustaf has struck me as fond of him from his posts before.

Whatever the case I'm in favor of the liberal party known for being the opposition to previous right-wing military regimes over the party that put a former officer of one those regimes in the PM spot.
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« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2011, 03:36:34 am »
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Gustaf has struck me as fond of him from his posts before.

Whatever the case I'm in favor of the liberal party known for being the opposition to previous right-wing military regimes over the party that put a former officer of one those regimes in the PM spot.
Exactly. Just like everybody else (excepting the Ope.)

And excepting me. I endorse the clown in my sig.
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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2011, 06:35:20 am »
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In latest Centre of Dhurakij Pundit University poll, of 33 constituencies in Bangkok, PTP is ahead in 22 and  Democrats up in 6.  As for a preferred choice of prime minister, 47% and 39% of the respondents want Pheu Thai candidate Yingluck Shinawatra and Democrat candidate Abhisit Vejjajiva respectively. Rak Santi’s Police General Purachai Piumsombun and Rak Thailand’s Chuvit Kamolvisit follow with 7% and 4% respectively.
In another poll for Bangkok,  37.9% of respondents said they would vote for constituency MP candidates of PTP, followed by the Democrats (22.2%), and Rak Santi (1.2%).
The Democrats came out with their own projection that they will win 185 out of the 500 seats where they will win 130 out of the 375 constituencies and 55 out of 125 party-list seats.  Democrats have 165 today.  This projection calls for the Democrats to win 22 out of the 33 Bangkok constituencies.  These polls indicate that these Democrat projections are not realistic.  And even if they were 185 seats will most likely be less than what PTP will win even under this Democrat rosy scenerio. 
Bangkok is where the Democrats should be strong.  If this is any indicator PTP will win and it could be with an absolute majority.

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« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2011, 06:40:26 am »
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Gustaf has struck me as fond of him from his posts before.

Whatever the case I'm in favor of the liberal party known for being the opposition to previous right-wing military regimes over the party that put a former officer of one those regimes in the PM spot.

I'm not fond of him. I find it interesting that you or Opebo would support the champion of the poor (however corrupt he is) over the reactionary establishment. For instance, I thought you were opposed to monarchy, so why do you support the monarchist side?

And, quoting from Wikipedia: "Without meeting much resistance, a military junta overthrew the interim government of Thaksin Shinawatra on 19 September 2006. The junta abrogated the constitution, dissolved Parliament and the Constitutional Court, detained and later removed several members of the government, declared martial law, and appointed one of the king's Privy Counselors, General Surayud Chulanont, as the Prime Minister. The junta later wrote a highly abbreviated interim constitution and appointed a panel to draft a permanent constitution. The junta also appointed a 250-member legislature, called by some critics a "chamber of generals" while others claimed that it lacks representatives from the poor majority.[30][31]
In this interim constitution draft, the head of the junta was allowed to remove the prime minister at any time. The legislature was not allowed to hold a vote of confidence against the cabinet and the public was not allowed to file comments on bills.[32] This interim constitution was later surpassed by the permanent constitution on 24 August 2007.
Martial law was partially revoked in January 2007. The ban on political activities was lifted in July 2007,[33] following the 30 May dissolution of the Thai Rak Thai party. The new constitution was approved by referendum on 19 August, which led to a return to democratic elections on 23 December 2007."

Sounds very liberal and democratic to me. See, even though I'm not left-winged and not particularly fond of politicians like Thaksin I still don't like fascist military coups. Funny thing is, I thought you didn't either. But I guess that if Opebo likes them they must be good.
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« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2011, 06:44:35 am »
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Oh, and here is the description of the anti-Thaksin PAD which led his overthrowal:

"The PAD consists of mainly of royalist upper and middle-class Bangkokians and Southerners, supported by the conservative factions of the Thai Army, some leaders of Democrat Party, and members of state-enterprise labor unions.[2][3]"

Sounds very liberal indeed. Further down:
"Citing the claimed failure of popular democracy in Thailand, the PAD has suggested constitutional amendments that would make Parliament a largely royally-appointed body.[26][27] It was strongly opposed to Thaksin's populist economic policies and attempts to decentralize political power. The Asian Human Rights Commission has noted of the PAD and their agenda that, "although they may not describe themselves as fascist, have fascist qualities."[28] The PAD is largely composed of royalists, has regularly invoked king Bhumibol Adulyadej in its protests, and has claimed that its enemies are disloyal to the monarchy.[29][30][31] It has openly called for the military and Thailand's traditional elite to take a greater role in politics.[32] The PAD is fiercely anti-Cambodian, with PAD leader and Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya calling Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen a "gangster", "crazy", a "tramp", a "slave", and saying that he would "use Hun Sen‘s blood to wash my feet."[33]"

It's good to see you know which side to take here, BRTD.
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« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2011, 07:10:22 am »
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One interesting angle in this election is that both Abhisit Vejjajiva  and Thaksin Shinawatra are Thai Chinese.  Thai Chinese form 14% of the Thai popluation but dominate the Thai economy.  Abhisit Vejjajiva great-grandfather had a surname of Yuan and after serving as minster of health for the Thai Royal government, the Thai king granted his family the name Vejjajiva which means medical profession.  Thaksin Shinawatra family came to Thailand in the 1860s and had the surname Chiang.  They changed it in the 1930s during the anti-Chinese movenment at that time.  That anti-Chinese movenment was led by another Chinese Thai prime minster Plaek Pibulsongkram.  Plaek Pibulsongkram  was the real father of modern Thailand.  He renamed the country's name from Siam to Thailand and led Thailand into a alliance with Japan in WWII and then USA in the Cold War.  He mandated cultural and political Thai nationalism mostly along the lines of the Fascist movement in Europe at that time.  It would be the equivalent of having a person of Jewish background lead the Nazi party in Germany and then proceed with a radical German Nationalist agenda.  One of the reasons given by the Thai army for the overthrow of Thaksin Shinawatra  was that he disrespected the King with and undertone of disloyalty because he was not a real Thia being of Chinese background.  This election this line does not work as well since Abhisit Vejjajiva  is also of Chinese background.
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« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2011, 07:22:28 am »
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Nobody really knows how many "Thai Chinese" there are... mostly because most of them are near totally assimilated and are in fact of only partly Chinese descent. It's like picking out Slavs in Germany... except that Chinese ancestry is a very vague indicator of higher social status, rather than lower as here.
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« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2011, 11:07:28 am »
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By liberal party I was referring to the Democrat Party.

Thaksin's people on the other hand put this fascist and murderer in power: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samak_Sundaravej
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« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2011, 06:09:53 pm »
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By liberal party I was referring to the Democrat Party.

Thaksin's people on the other hand put this fascist and murderer in power: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samak_Sundaravej

That was after Thaksin was exiled and his party forbidden. Very liberal.

Anyway, here is your nice little party:

"The party upholds a constitutional monarchist and conservative position.[2] Numerous party members such as Somkiat Pongpaibul and Minister of Foreign Affairs Kasit Piromya were members of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD, commonly known as the "Yellow Shirts"), the royalist movement that helped overthrow Thaksin Shinawatra.[3] The party's electoral support bases are mainly richer constituencies in Bangkok and Southern Thailand. Since 2004, Democrat candidates won three elections for the governorship of Bangkok."

So, beyond the fact that it's basically the same as the PAD it doesn't sound very liberal. In any way.

Furthermore:

"A fact-finding panel at the Attorney-General's Office found that the Democrat Party bribed other parties to boycott the 2006 parliamentary election to force a constitutional crisis, and voted to dissolve the party. A junta tribunal acquitted Abhisit and the Democrats of the vote fraud charges, while banning Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai party for similar charges. Abhisit supported the junta's 2007 Constitution, calling it an improvement on the 1997 Constitution.[17]"

The most amusing thing is of course that the guy you brand as fascist was a member of the party which you branded as liberal and anti-fascist. Which just goes to show that you're being completely clueless and is just desperately trying to support your beloved idol in his support for the fascist side in Thai politics.
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« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2011, 10:24:53 pm »
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Yes, he was a member of the Democrats just as George Wallace and Strom Thurmond were members of the American Democrats. He split at about the same time as they did:

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On October 5, Samak was removed from his ministerial position, and in reaction organized an anti-government demonstration calling for the removal of three liberal Democrat ministers he branded as being "communists".[8] It had been said that Samak was involved in the 6 October 1976 Massacre at Thammasat University in which students were protesting against the return of a military dictator. Samak played a crucial role in instigating violence against the students he called "communists". The incident ended violently, the victims were brutally slaughtered and burnt.

The Democrats as a party though were consistently opposed to fascist regimes:

Quote
Thanom Kittikachorn, who had succeeded Sarit after his death, was pressured to promulgate a democratic constitution on June 20, 1968, and hold elections in February 1969. Parties affiliated with Thanom won that election, and the Democrats joined the opposition. Thanom, his son Narong, and his brother-in-law Praphas Charusathien became known as the Three Tyrants. They later executed a coup against their own government on November 17, 1971, abrogating the Constitution and running the Kingdom through a National Executive Council. Beginning in 1972, popular demands for democratic freedoms began to grow. In response to the demands, the National Executive Council drafted a new charter in December 1972, which established a wholly appointed 299-member National Legislative Assembly.

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Opposition to the Three Tyrants culminated on October 14, 1973, when 400,000 protested at the Democracy Monument. A violent crackdown and subsequent intervention by the King led to the appointment of Privy Councilor Sanya Dhammasakdi as Premier. The Three Tyrants left the Kingdom. Sanya established a constitution drafting committee, consisting of Kukrit Pramoj (who by this time had established and defected to the Social Action Party) and many academics. The new constitution was promulgated on October 7, 1974.

Legislative elections were held in January 1975, resulting in none of the 22 parties coming close to winning a majority. The Democrats, led by Seni Pramoj, formed a coalition government in February 1974. Seni was appointed Premier, but the coalition was unstable, and was replaced in less than a month by a Social Action Party-led coalition which appointed Social Action Party leader Kukrit Pramoj as Premier.

Quote
The Democrat Party became an outspoken opponent of military rule in Thai politics during the 1990s. The Democrat Party was the key member of the "People Power" movement in 1992.

I'm not too sure a movement ran by a rabid nationalist, racist and autocratic billionaire should be considered liberal.
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« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2011, 02:23:56 am »
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Really the only logic in which one could call Thaksin a leftist is the through process of radical libertarians who like to say things like "Hitler and Mussolini were left wing."
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« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2011, 04:16:07 am »
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You're seriously just BSing. Let me post what I did again, then:

"The party upholds a constitutional monarchist and conservative position.[2] Numerous party members such as Somkiat Pongpaibul and Minister of Foreign Affairs Kasit Piromya were members of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD, commonly known as the "Yellow Shirts"), the royalist movement that helped overthrow Thaksin Shinawatra.[3] The party's electoral support bases are mainly richer constituencies in Bangkok and Southern Thailand. "

I mean, do you have no reading comprehension? It's always been defined as being pro-king and anti-democracy.

"Although having no representatives in the cabinet, the Democrats had key representatives in the constitution drafting committee. Headed by Seni Pramoj and dominated by royalists under the direction of Prince Rangsit and Prince Dhani, the 1949 Constitution elevated the throne to its most powerful position since the 1932 overthrow of the absolute monarchy.[8] Among its features was a senate whose senators were to be appointed directly by the King. The constitution triggered protests among much of the public. It was attacked as contrary to the purpose of the 1932 revolution. Critics were branded republicans and communists.[9]"

You're basically just trolling here. There is no foundation for your position at all. It seems that during a period of time the military was actually for democracy which is why the Democrat party opposed them. Right now they are allied with the military and the king against democracy. They have lost a couple of elections but both times managed to outlaw the winning parties. How is that liberal?

---------------

Your Hitler and Mussolini analogy is amusing because that is precisely what you're doing. You're saying that a party that was once against the military must be the left - sort of like when people say that because Mussolini was originally a socialist or Hitler's party was called a worker's party they must be left-wingers.

If one looks at actual policy and voter bases there is no question that you're wrong.

Let me cite for you once again:

"The Thai Rak Thai party had a populist platform, appealing to indebted farmers - which had become indebted as a result of the Asian Financial Crisis of 1997 - with promises of a strong economic recovery. The party also reached out to rural villages, and struggling businesses. Thai Rak Thai's policies have included a 30 Baht per hospital visit scheme, an extended debt moratorium for farmers, 1 million Baht microcredit development funds for all rural districts, and the One Tambon One Product project."

How is that not more left than the party of the rich guys who wants to give more power to the king and is supported by the army?
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« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2011, 04:18:53 am »
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But, hey, I'll give you a deal: if you admit that you're willing to throw all your professed political ideals and principles over board and support a fascist political grouping just because some random guy on the internet that you've never met supports it (because he's a fascist) I will leave you be.

I don't care that you like fascists I just want to see you admit it.
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« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2011, 11:49:43 am »
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The Hitler thing was in reference to libertarians saying things like "Well Hitler expanded the power of government so he was obviously left wing." It's blatantly idiotic to anyone who isn't a radical libertarian, but it's not too far off from calling Thaksin some type of left winger on those grounds. It should be blatantly obvious that all Thaksin cared about was pandering to his base of voters anyway. Robert Mugabe's base of support could also be described as "rural poor" and he started out with similar economic policies too.

Thaksin's party was called "Thai Rak Thai", which means "Thais Love Thais". That's basically a sentiment echoed when the BNP says things like "Britain for the British." He was an extreme nationalist and the rural poor often respond well to nationalistic sentiment. I've heard libertarians say things like that the BNP is left wing too. Was Jorg Haider left wing? His party proposed the nationalization of all agriculture, something that no other party did. In addition to his nationalism Thaksin had a horrible record of corruption, vote fraud, and a horrible human rights record of extrajudicial killings. Do you think the Muslims in southern Thailand are all fascists or aristocrats? That's what their voting patterns would imply if you accept "Thaksin = leftist/opposition = fascist" Did Samak become a leftist at some point before becoming PM too?

Furthermore the last election before Thaksin's ouster was boycotted by ALL opposition parties, not just the Democrats but also the conservative Chart Thai Party. Thaksin's party was later banned for pretty blatant vote fraud.

And Thanom Kittikachorn, a supporter of democracy? LOL.

Oh are you calling Xahar and Hashemite fascists too? They share opebo and I's views in regards to this.
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