Porn "superstores"

[danwxman]

Just saw the piece on FoxNews...In typical biased FoxNews fashion they described most of the attendants as "city-slickers" but from around here I can tell you they are all in the rural backwoodsy areas. Anyway, what do you think about these stores opening up in more and more places? I'd especially like to here the Libertarian point of view. Do they have the right to open up wherever they want...you know...property rights?

[John Dibble]

Well, I somewhat stray from typical Libertarian ideology in that I support modest zoning laws. Many libertarians do as well.

Generally I only support 'residential', 'commercial', and 'industrial' type zoning. Also, zoning can't affect what's already there - if a house is in an area and the area becomes newly 'commercial' that house has every right to be there(previous zoning laws would apply, if any existed, so additions could still be made) - though if it is torn down a new house can't be built, it must conform to the new zoning laws.

Porn shops and the like, though having the right to exist in my view, do have one statistically proven problem - in areas of larger population clustering them can result in an increase in crime in the area, usually resulting from street prostitutes wondering around, bringing with them their pimps and eventually drug dealers, and all that comes with that. It takes two or more to do that, and it gets worse with more, creating a 'red light district'. Now, a single shop is usually quite harmless, though it would decrease property values in a residential district. So, the best solution is to use zoning laws to distance them so the criminal elements won't have somewhere to gather.

[opebo]

Anything that makes porn more redily available makes America a better place.  Now if we could just legalize prostitution.

Interestingly, the amazing popularity of pornography is a symptom of America's prudery and the pathetically unsatisfied state of the average American male.

[danwxman]

Well, I somewhat stray from typical Libertarian ideology in that I support modest zoning laws. Many libertarians do as well.

Generally I only support 'residential', 'commercial', and 'industrial' type zoning. Also, zoning can't affect what's already there - if a house is in an area and the area becomes newly 'commercial' that house has every right to be there(previous zoning laws would apply, if any existed, so additions could still be made) - though if it is torn down a new house can't be built, it must conform to the new zoning laws.

Porn shops and the like, though having the right to exist in my view, do have one statistically proven problem - in areas of larger population clustering them can result in an increase in crime in the area, usually resulting from street prostitutes wondering around, bringing with them their pimps and eventually drug dealers, and all that comes with that. It takes two or more to do that, and it gets worse with more, creating a 'red light district'. Now, a single shop is usually quite harmless, though it would decrease property values in a residential district. So, the best solution is to use zoning laws to distance them so the criminal elements won't have somewhere to gather.

I'm sure you would support mixed-use zoning? I actually feel that are zoning laws are too restrictive in many ways, and too relaxed in others. Many rural areas are just zoned low density residential which allows for huge sprawly suburban developments...I think if we allowed mixed-use zoning and instead built commercial and higher density residential in the same area it would alleviate many of the problems associated with suburban sprawl (traffic woes, new roads, and in turn higher taxes).

[John Dibble]

Well, I somewhat stray from typical Libertarian ideology in that I support modest zoning laws. Many libertarians do as well.

Generally I only support 'residential', 'commercial', and 'industrial' type zoning. Also, zoning can't affect what's already there - if a house is in an area and the area becomes newly 'commercial' that house has every right to be there(previous zoning laws would apply, if any existed, so additions could still be made) - though if it is torn down a new house can't be built, it must conform to the new zoning laws.

Porn shops and the like, though having the right to exist in my view, do have one statistically proven problem - in areas of larger population clustering them can result in an increase in crime in the area, usually resulting from street prostitutes wondering around, bringing with them their pimps and eventually drug dealers, and all that comes with that. It takes two or more to do that, and it gets worse with more, creating a 'red light district'. Now, a single shop is usually quite harmless, though it would decrease property values in a residential district. So, the best solution is to use zoning laws to distance them so the criminal elements won't have somewhere to gather.

I'm sure you would support mixed-use zoning? I actually feel that are zoning laws are too restrictive in many ways, and too relaxed in others. Many rural areas are just zoned low density residential which allows for huge sprawly suburban developments...I think if we allowed mixed-use zoning and instead built commercial and higher density residential in the same area it would alleviate many of the problems associated with suburban sprawl (traffic woes, new roads, and in turn higher taxes).

Mixed zoning depends on the area - any type of zoning would work for one area and work differently for others. I just prefer zoning to be done in moderation. Zoning is a local government issue.

[J-Mann]

Just saw the piece on FoxNews...In typical biased FoxNews fashion they described most of the attendants as "city-slickers" but from around here I can tell you they are all in the rural backwoodsy areas. Anyway, what do you think about these stores opening up in more and more places? I'd especially like to here the Libertarian point of view. Do they have the right to open up wherever they want...you know...property rights?

I've been by The Lion's Den in Abilene, KS; we've even stopped in to see what all the fuss was about, and probably got my license plate number taken down by an evangelical in the process!  The uproar over them is quite ridiculous.

It was a clean, well-taken care of store with locals running the place.  The manager may have moved in, but the staffers and clerks were local.  The one "in" Abilene is actually three miles outside of the city on I-70.  It's got every right to be there, and although it would be nice for decency's sake for it to be a bit more hidden, they do have every right to set up shop where they did.  If these people opposed to their being there don't like them, they just don't have to shop there.  Instead, many of them hang out there a lot and take down license plate numbers of shoppers.

I've talked to the manager of the Abilene Lion's Den and the owner of another I-70 store just a bit further west outside of Wilson, KS.  Both said that you'd be amazed at the number of locals who come in to shop there...especially women!

[Beet]

"Travis, what's the one thing about this country that bugs you the most?"

"I don't know, sir. I don't really follow political issues too closely."

"Oh come on, there must be something."

"Whatever it is you should clean up this city here, because this city here is like an open sewer ya know-it's full of filth and scum. Sometimes I can hardly take it. Whoever becomes the president should just really clean it up, ya know what I mean? Sometimes I get headaches it's so bad... they just never go away, ya know? I think the president should just clean up this whole mess here, should just flush it right down the ing toilet."

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I have no problem with them. We have several in my city. I almost got a job at one.

[opebo]

"Travis, what's the one thing about this country that bugs you the most?"

"I don't know, sir. I don't really follow political issues too closely."

"Oh come on, there must be something."

"Whatever it is you should clean up this city here, because this city here is like an open sewer ya know-it's full of filth and scum. Sometimes I can hardly take it. Whoever becomes the president should just really clean it up, ya know what I mean? Sometimes I get headaches it's so bad... they just never go away, ya know? I think the president should just clean up this whole mess here, should just flush it right down the g toilet."

It is funny that Rudy Guilaiani basically implemented Travis Bickle's plan for New York City.

Sad.. used to be a fun place. 

[opebo]

I have no problem with them. We have several in my city. I almost got a job at one.

I once worked at one (not in St. Louis) - my only other job in grad school besides taxi driving.  It was a fun and hilarious place to work! The regular customers were all very nice and pleasant, though some of the people who just came in 'for a laugh' were a pain.  We never had any problems with the religious nuts - but that was back in the 1990's.

Since then the country has gotten much worse - I occasionally visit a similar store when in St. Louis, and they have had such nut cases running around in the store leaving little religious tracts on the shelves.  Offensive!

[TeePee4Prez]

Anything that makes porn more redily available makes America a better place.  Now if we could just legalize prostitution.

Interestingly, the amazing popularity of pornography is a symptom of America's prudery and the pathetically unsatisfied state of the average American male.

Agreed.  I don't know if Keystone would agree with me on this, but the state of some neighborhoods in Philadelphia, especially those near Kensington Ave, would be drastically improved if legalized brothels were to be a reality.  Prostitution has ruined some neighborhoods because of the drugs and other things brought into it.  It should be run like Holland.  Girls should be tested every month and licensed. 

[Keystone Phil]

Anything that makes porn more redily available makes America a better place.  Now if we could just legalize prostitution.

Interestingly, the amazing popularity of pornography is a symptom of America's prudery and the pathetically unsatisfied state of the average American male.

Agreed.  I don't know if Keystone would agree with me on this, but the state of some neighborhoods in Philadelphia, especially those near Kensington Ave, would be drastically improved if legalized brothels were to be a reality.  Prostitution has ruined some neighborhoods because of the drugs and other things brought into it.  It should be run like Holland.  Girls should be tested every month and licensed. 

Absolutley not. This would actually hurt struggling neighborhoods in NE Philly. Families would flee these areas.

[Confabulator]

They already have.

[??????????]

Porn stores are not to popular around here. They have many heavy restrictions on them and are only really allowed by law in Tampa itself. Polk county, our neighboring county, porn stores such as these are banned and the ones that were open were shut down. Although I disagree with that extreme measure I also do not believe they should be opened right next door to the local market. Their's a time and place for everything I always say.

[opebo]

Porn stores are not to popular around here. They have many heavy restrictions on them and are only really allowed by law in Tampa itself. Polk county, our neighboring county, porn stores such as these are banned and the ones that were open were shut down. Although I disagree with that extreme measure I also do not believe they should be opened right next door to the local market. Their's a time and place for everything I always say.

Yuck.  I didn't know Florida was that bad.  If I were there I'd move.

As for Missouri, there are porn shops in a few of the less oppressive towns - for example the main college town, Columbia.  St. Louis itself is terribly conservative, and the only porn stores that exsist are 'grandfathered' in from an earlier, less censoring time (heck back in the 1970's there were brothels all over the place!).

[TeePee4Prez]

Anything that makes porn more redily available makes America a better place.  Now if we could just legalize prostitution.

Interestingly, the amazing popularity of pornography is a symptom of America's prudery and the pathetically unsatisfied state of the average American male.

Agreed.  I don't know if Keystone would agree with me on this, but the state of some neighborhoods in Philadelphia, especially those near Kensington Ave, would be drastically improved if legalized brothels were to be a reality.  Prostitution has ruined some neighborhoods because of the drugs and other things brought into it.  It should be run like Holland.  Girls should be tested every month and licensed. 

Absolutley not. This would actually hurt struggling neighborhoods in NE Philly. Families would flee these areas.

Put the brothels on Kensington Ave or anywhere and have a "red light district".  This would cause people to stay off the streets in places liek Port Richmond or Harrowgate. Keep them to a main road and out of reisdential areas.  This would also increase the quiality of the women selling themselves as well for there would be higher standards, but you'd pay more.  Some of the women are horrible looking.  No joke one of the Johns tried to pick up a Catholic school girl on her way to class.  These whores would hang outside Dunkin Donuts when I went to North Catholic.  They were absolutely disgusting.  I do not see how my proposal is "anti-family" when it in fact frees up police resources to keep cops on the job and creates a new source of revenue (taxes on the "sale" of sex). 

[Keystone Phil]

Anything that makes porn more redily available makes America a better place.  Now if we could just legalize prostitution.

Interestingly, the amazing popularity of pornography is a symptom of America's prudery and the pathetically unsatisfied state of the average American male.

Agreed.  I don't know if Keystone would agree with me on this, but the state of some neighborhoods in Philadelphia, especially those near Kensington Ave, would be drastically improved if legalized brothels were to be a reality.  Prostitution has ruined some neighborhoods because of the drugs and other things brought into it.  It should be run like Holland.  Girls should be tested every month and licensed. 

Absolutley not. This would actually hurt struggling neighborhoods in NE Philly. Families would flee these areas.

Put the brothels on Kensington Ave or anywhere and have a "red light district".  This would cause people to stay off the streets in places liek Port Richmond or Harrowgate. Keep them to a main road and out of reisdential areas. I do not see how my proposal is "anti-family" when it in fact frees up police resources to keep cops on the job and creates a new source of revenue (taxes on the "sale" of sex). 

What about the families that live near the red light district? This would not solve any of the problems that these struggling neighborhoods have.

[David S]

Libertarian philosophy is that people have a right to do what they want so long as they don't interfere with the rights of others. The question is; does a porn shop interfere with the rights of others? I think you can make a good case that a porn shop in the wrong place does. A porn shop next to an elementary school playground would be such a case as potentially it would put children at risk to sexual predators.

I would say keep them out of residential areas and away from schools. Require discreet advertising and window displays  ( no 50 foot tall naked women in neon lights) and limit access to people over 18. Also I agree with Jonh Dibble's comment that too many can be a problem.

[??????????]

Libertarian philosophy is that people have a right to do what they want so long as they don't interfere with the rights of others. The question is; does a porn shop interfere with the rights of others? I think you can make a good case that a porn shop in the wrong place does. A porn shop next to an elementary school playground would be such a case as potentially it would put children at risk to sexual predators.

I would say keep them out of residential areas and away from schools. Require discreet advertising and window displays  ( no 50 foot tall naked women in neon lights) and limit access to people over 18. Also I agree with Jonh Dibble's comment that too many can be a problem.

I can quote Opebo with confidence here.

"You Prude, all the rest of the world has them IN elementary schools. You must be a part of the religious takeover!"

[David S]

Libertarian philosophy is that people have a right to do what they want so long as they don't interfere with the rights of others. The question is; does a porn shop interfere with the rights of others? I think you can make a good case that a porn shop in the wrong place does. A porn shop next to an elementary school playground would be such a case as potentially it would put children at risk to sexual predators.

I would say keep them out of residential areas and away from schools. Require discreet advertising and window displays  ( no 50 foot tall naked women in neon lights) and limit access to people over 18. Also I agree with Jonh Dibble's comment that too many can be a problem.

I can quote Opebo with confidence here.

"You Prude, all the rest of the world has them IN elementary schools. You must be a part of the religious takeover!"

I would ask for his advice if I was looking for a list of the world's best whorehouses. But I'm not looking for that. 

[TeePee4Prez]

Libertarian philosophy is that people have a right to do what they want so long as they don't interfere with the rights of others. The question is; does a porn shop interfere with the rights of others? I think you can make a good case that a porn shop in the wrong place does. A porn shop next to an elementary school playground would be such a case as potentially it would put children at risk to sexual predators.

I would say keep them out of residential areas and away from schools. Require discreet advertising and window displays  ( no 50 foot tall naked women in neon lights) and limit access to people over 18. Also I agree with Jonh Dibble's comment that too many can be a problem.

Right and the district should be sectioned off.  Also, it should be a fair distance from elementary and secondary schools.  As for Keystone's comment, we're already seeing problems arise ANYWAY.  My plan is to keep prostitutes out of neighborhoods such as Frankford, Port Richmond, or Kensington and have a much safer trade.

[Keystone Phil]

Libertarian philosophy is that people have a right to do what they want so long as they don't interfere with the rights of others. The question is; does a porn shop interfere with the rights of others? I think you can make a good case that a porn shop in the wrong place does. A porn shop next to an elementary school playground would be such a case as potentially it would put children at risk to sexual predators.

I would say keep them out of residential areas and away from schools. Require discreet advertising and window displays  ( no 50 foot tall naked women in neon lights) and limit access to people over 18. Also I agree with Jonh Dibble's comment that too many can be a problem.

Right and the district should be sectioned off.  Also, it should be a fair distance from elementary and secondary schools.  As for Keystone's comment, we're already seeing problems arise ANYWAY.  My plan is to keep prostitutes out of neighborhoods such as Frankford, Port Richmond, or Kensington and have a much safer trade.

We've seen problems arise anyway so let's make things worse. What sense does that make? If you think you're just going to contain prostitutes and the problems of a red light district just to the red light district, you are sadly mistaken. It would only hurt these struggling neighborhoods.

[badnarikin04]

I, from personal experience, despise zoning because in my town it puts my house MILES away from the nearest capitalist institution. I need to bike my ass off to see a movie or get some fast food. If it were a feasible distance away from these places, I would bike everywhere and get more exercise.

ZONING HAS MADE ME LETHARGIC!!!!

I would have no problem growing up near a porn superstore.

[opebo]

I, from personal experience, despise zoning because in my town it puts my house MILES away from the nearest capitalist institution. I need to bike my ass off to see a movie or get some fast food. If it were a feasible distance away from these places, I would bike everywhere and get more exercise.

ZONING HAS MADE ME LETHARGIC!!!!

The way that America is zoned and built is about as poor as is possible to imagine, and is a national tradegy.

[opebo]

We've seen problems arise anyway so let's make things worse. What sense does that make? If you think you're just going to contain prostitutes and the problems of a red light district just to the red light district, you are sadly mistaken. It would only hurt these struggling neighborhoods.

Legal prostitution is a totally different phenomenon than illegal prostitution.  If it were legal, not only drug addicts would go into it - in fact it would be a wonderfully lucrative alterative for good looking working-class women who'd otherwise be condemned to a Walmart level job at $7 an hour.  This would greatly reduce the drug-sales aspect of a red-light district (though of course drugs should be legalized also).

Nearly all the hazards associated with prostitution - such as being attacked or murdered by the customer - are ameliorated by legalization.  The women would have access to legal protection against attacks, coercion, pimping, etc.  Most of what you associate as negative social phenomenons surrounding prostitution are there precisely because it is illegal, not because of anthing intrinsically bad about the job.