Homosexuality

[Sibboleth]

It does, for ideological matters. Believing in biological determinations or in free will leads to two very different visions of humanity.

I'm sure that they do, but what does that matter (except in an angels-dancing-on-pinheads sense) in this context?

I think it helps us understand ourselves (including straight people).

Isn't that a little solipsistic? Besides, why should that have any bearing on how we - as a society - treat homosexuals? (or any other minority, for that matter).

[afleitch]

A big ball of factors. Same with heterosexuality (which is never under the same degree of scrutiny and perhaps it is about time it was...)

In the end, it doesn't matter.

[opebo]

This reminds me of the debate about liver.  Isn't it true that the stereotype of young children in america is that they dislike eating livers?  Or is that only certain kinds?  Here in Thailand children are famous and somewhat pigeonholed as chicken-liver-lovers.

[J. J.]

It does, for ideological matters. Believing in biological determinations or in free will leads to two very different visions of humanity.

I'm sure that they do, but what does that matter (except in an angels-dancing-on-pinheads sense) in this context?

I think it helps us understand ourselves (including straight people).

Isn't that a little solipsistic? Besides, why should that have any bearing on how we - as a society - treat homosexuals? (or any other minority, for that matter).

No.  I'm interested in how the works.  There are a bunch of legal issues that deal with treatment of people.  This thread is not about those issues.

[TJ in Wisco]

The predisposition to same-sex attraction is probably at least in part genetic, along with some element of socialization, any activity that could affect hormone levels, etc.

But, to act upon those attractions is not genetic at all. People also have the ability to not engage in a sex act or to enter into a certain relationship. So if we take homosexuality to be an act rather than an attraction (the word 'homosexuality' may be ambiguous in this respect, though I haven't met many celibate people who experience same-sex attraction who call themselves homosexuals so I am taking it to imply that one has engaged in said acts and is not celibate), then it must be a choice as long as we accept that we have the ability to make choices, ie. free will. If we have no free will then this is all a moot point anyway, so I'd consider "lifestyle choice" to be a more representative reflection of my view than "genetic" but that I'd rather select "Both" if I could.

Breathing and eating should also be classified as "lifestyle choices" then.

It’s different, because if you don’t eat or breathe at all, you die. You can live without sexual activity, believe it or not. Before anyone says it’s impossible, I’ve made it all 22.5 years of life this far without committing a sex act, including making out and masturbation. Yes, I’ve made it through an undergraduate degree in college and at a secular research institution (with a liberal reputation at that) not a religious school. One day this may end if I find a girl I’d like to marry. If not, I might make it my whole life. It might not always be fun, pleasurable, or easy but it’s possible. Someday I might screw up and in my human imperfection engage in a sex act outside the bonds of marriage, committing a sin (though whether or not committing such an act is a sin or not is beside the point). The point is that if I do, it’s still a choice I made. There is more to life than sexual pleasure.

Eating and breathing on the other hand are required to live without artificial support. Perhaps we could argue about whether an IV constitutes “eating” or a ventilator constituted “breathing” though that is entirely semantic because and IV and a ventilator serve the same purpose as eating and breathing. I guess one could make the argument that this is a lifestyle choice too but to make the opposite choice would interfere with a person’s ability to perform other tasks required to be a functional human.

[angus]

This reminds me of the debate about liver.  Isn't it true that the stereotype of young children in america is that they dislike eating livers?  Or is that only certain kinds?  Here in Thailand children are famous and somewhat pigeonholed as chicken-liver-lovers.

My son likes chicken liver.  So did my mother.

I guess it skips a generation.

[Snowguy716]

The predisposition to same-sex attraction is probably at least in part genetic, along with some element of socialization, any activity that could affect hormone levels, etc.

But, to act upon those attractions is not genetic at all. People also have the ability to not engage in a sex act or to enter into a certain relationship. So if we take homosexuality to be an act rather than an attraction (the word 'homosexuality' may be ambiguous in this respect, though I haven't met many celibate people who experience same-sex attraction who call themselves homosexuals so I am taking it to imply that one has engaged in said acts and is not celibate), then it must be a choice as long as we accept that we have the ability to make choices, ie. free will. If we have no free will then this is all a moot point anyway, so I'd consider "lifestyle choice" to be a more representative reflection of my view than "genetic" but that I'd rather select "Both" if I could.

Breathing and eating should also be classified as "lifestyle choices" then.

It’s different, because if you don’t eat or breathe at all, you die. You can live without sexual activity, believe it or not. Before anyone says it’s impossible, I’ve made it all 22.5 years of life this far without committing a sex act, including making out and masturbation. Yes, I’ve made it through an undergraduate degree in college and at a secular research institution (with a liberal reputation at that) not a religious school. One day this may end if I find a girl I’d like to marry. If not, I might make it my whole life. It might not always be fun, pleasurable, or easy but it’s possible. Someday I might screw up and in my human imperfection engage in a sex act outside the bonds of marriage, committing a sin (though whether or not committing such an act is a sin or not is beside the point). The point is that if I do, it’s still a choice I made. There is more to life than sexual pleasure.

Eating and breathing on the other hand are required to live without artificial support. Perhaps we could argue about whether an IV constitutes “eating” or a ventilator constituted “breathing” though that is entirely semantic because and IV and a ventilator serve the same purpose as eating and breathing. I guess one could make the argument that this is a lifestyle choice too but to make the opposite choice would interfere with a person’s ability to perform other tasks required to be a functional human.

You don't die if you quit breathing or eating because a)  the buildup of carbon dioxide in your blood will cause so much pain and discomfort and send panic signals to your brain that you will begin breathing again or b)  you will starve only for so long before the instinct to eat kicks in and you gorge yourself at McDonalds until you're violently sick.

The same goes for sexual activity.  Seeking release that is not available through sex or masturbation, you are discharging your body's excess semen in your sleep, whether you realize it or not.  And how does your body do that?  Why.. through the orgasm, of course.

[white trash heroes]

Before anyone says it’s impossible, I’ve made it all 22.5 years of life this far without committing a sex act, including making out and masturbation.

Believe me, nobody is surprised.

[TJ in Wisco]

The predisposition to same-sex attraction is probably at least in part genetic, along with some element of socialization, any activity that could affect hormone levels, etc.

But, to act upon those attractions is not genetic at all. People also have the ability to not engage in a sex act or to enter into a certain relationship. So if we take homosexuality to be an act rather than an attraction (the word 'homosexuality' may be ambiguous in this respect, though I haven't met many celibate people who experience same-sex attraction who call themselves homosexuals so I am taking it to imply that one has engaged in said acts and is not celibate), then it must be a choice as long as we accept that we have the ability to make choices, ie. free will. If we have no free will then this is all a moot point anyway, so I'd consider "lifestyle choice" to be a more representative reflection of my view than "genetic" but that I'd rather select "Both" if I could.

Breathing and eating should also be classified as "lifestyle choices" then.

It’s different, because if you don’t eat or breathe at all, you die. You can live without sexual activity, believe it or not. Before anyone says it’s impossible, I’ve made it all 22.5 years of life this far without committing a sex act, including making out and masturbation. Yes, I’ve made it through an undergraduate degree in college and at a secular research institution (with a liberal reputation at that) not a religious school. One day this may end if I find a girl I’d like to marry. If not, I might make it my whole life. It might not always be fun, pleasurable, or easy but it’s possible. Someday I might screw up and in my human imperfection engage in a sex act outside the bonds of marriage, committing a sin (though whether or not committing such an act is a sin or not is beside the point). The point is that if I do, it’s still a choice I made. There is more to life than sexual pleasure.

Eating and breathing on the other hand are required to live without artificial support. Perhaps we could argue about whether an IV constitutes “eating” or a ventilator constituted “breathing” though that is entirely semantic because and IV and a ventilator serve the same purpose as eating and breathing. I guess one could make the argument that this is a lifestyle choice too but to make the opposite choice would interfere with a person’s ability to perform other tasks required to be a functional human.

You don't die if you quit breathing or eating because a)  the buildup of carbon dioxide in your blood will cause so much pain and discomfort and send panic signals to your brain that you will begin breathing again or b)  you will starve only for so long before the instinct to eat kicks in and you gorge yourself at McDonalds until you're violently sick.

The same goes for sexual activity.  Seeking release that is not available through sex or masturbation, you are discharging your body's excess semen in your sleep, whether you realize it or not.  And how does your body do that?  Why.. through the orgasm, of course.

You can still choose whether to engage in a sex act with another individual.

[white trash heroes]

You'd still be lusting in your heart!

[TJ in Wisco]

Before anyone says it’s impossible, I’ve made it all 22.5 years of life this far without committing a sex act, including making out and masturbation.

Believe me, nobody is surprised.

Haha I bet there are plenty of nerdy individuals out there like me with no gf and who don't have random hook-ups, mostly from never attending a party (though I usually go to parties as the only sober one since most of my best friends have a rather different outlook on this kind of stuff than I do) 

Actually, I was more expecting to get the "You're lying, you can't possibly expect me to believe you don't masterbate" line from people.

[LBJer]

The predisposition to same-sex attraction is probably at least in part genetic, along with some element of socialization, any activity that could affect hormone levels, etc.

But, to act upon those attractions is not genetic at all. People also have the ability to not engage in a sex act or to enter into a certain relationship. So if we take homosexuality to be an act rather than an attraction (the word 'homosexuality' may be ambiguous in this respect, though I haven't met many celibate people who experience same-sex attraction who call themselves homosexuals so I am taking it to imply that one has engaged in said acts and is not celibate), then it must be a choice as long as we accept that we have the ability to make choices, ie. free will. If we have no free will then this is all a moot point anyway, so I'd consider "lifestyle choice" to be a more representative reflection of my view than "genetic" but that I'd rather select "Both" if I could.

Breathing and eating should also be classified as "lifestyle choices" then.

It’s different, because if you don’t eat or breathe at all, you die. You can live without sexual activity, believe it or not. Before anyone says it’s impossible, I’ve made it all 22.5 years of life this far without committing a sex act, including making out and masturbation. Yes, I’ve made it through an undergraduate degree in college and at a secular research institution (with a liberal reputation at that) not a religious school. One day this may end if I find a girl I’d like to marry. If not, I might make it my whole life. It might not always be fun, pleasurable, or easy but it’s possible. Someday I might screw up and in my human imperfection engage in a sex act outside the bonds of marriage, committing a sin (though whether or not committing such an act is a sin or not is beside the point). The point is that if I do, it’s still a choice I made. There is more to life than sexual pleasure.

Eating and breathing on the other hand are required to live without artificial support. Perhaps we could argue about whether an IV constitutes “eating” or a ventilator constituted “breathing” though that is entirely semantic because and IV and a ventilator serve the same purpose as eating and breathing. I guess one could make the argument that this is a lifestyle choice too but to make the opposite choice would interfere with a person’s ability to perform other tasks required to be a functional human.

You don't die if you quit breathing or eating because a)  the buildup of carbon dioxide in your blood will cause so much pain and discomfort and send panic signals to your brain that you will begin breathing again or b)  you will starve only for so long before the instinct to eat kicks in and you gorge yourself at McDonalds until you're violently sick.

The same goes for sexual activity.  Seeking release that is not available through sex or masturbation, you are discharging your body's excess semen in your sleep, whether you realize it or not.  And how does your body do that?  Why.. through the orgasm, of course.

You can still choose whether to engage in a sex act with another individual.

Suppose heterosexuality, not homosexuality, was considered wrong by religion and social mores.  How many straights would be willing to go their entire lives without "acting on" their sexual orientation as a result?  Virtually none, of course.  Why should gays be any different?

[white trash heroes]

Bro, sarcasm aside I don't actually hate you but uh.. It's a tad hard to take anything abstinence related seriously as a solution. Most people tend to go a tad stir crazy trying to live up to that. Nobody wants to wind up like Neil Horsley or Jonathan Krohn.

[wormyguy]

Dude, if you go to parties as the only sober one and you can't ever get a girl, then you're either disgustingly ugly, gay, autistic, your dick doesn't work, or your balls haven't dropped.

[white trash heroes]

Dude, if you go to parties as the only sober one and you can't ever get a girl, then you're either disgustingly ugly, gay, autistic, your dick doesn't work, or your balls haven't dropped.

Idk, some girls are into that, especially if their daddy's name is Schmitz.

[The Mikado]

Why people continue to go to that kind of parties baffles me.  The alcohol is usually very, very low-caliber.  Why people go to some sh**ty university party and drink abominations like Natty Lite when they could invest in a nice bottle of decent whisky or a pack of decent beer and drink at home is beyond me.  It also ends up being considerably cheaper than the amount you spend to get stuff to keep your friends in booze, even if you go for bottom of the shelf stuff.

I didn't even enjoy that sort of thing when I was 20.  Why the hell does TJ go to that sort of falling down drunk parties if he doesn't drink?

[Snowguy716]

Before anyone says it’s impossible, I’ve made it all 22.5 years of life this far without committing a sex act, including making out and masturbation.

Believe me, nobody is surprised.

Haha I bet there are plenty of nerdy individuals out there like me with no gf and who don't have random hook-ups, mostly from never attending a party (though I usually go to parties as the only sober one since most of my best friends have a rather different outlook on this kind of stuff than I do) 

Actually, I was more expecting to get the "You're lying, you can't possibly expect me to believe you don't masterbate" line from people.

I actually really like the fact that you have been nothing but amicable and friendly since arriving here.  I admit my first thought was "  Another Republican from Ohio"... but you're actually just a nice guy who happens to disagree with me.

That said,

the "I'm saving myself for marriage" thing is nothing but a defense mechanism.  If you don't have the self courage to get a girl, I don't believe you'd have the courage to say no if the situation presented itself.  Just my humble opinion, of course.

[TJ in Wisco]

I didn't even enjoy that sort of thing when I was 20.  Why the hell does TJ go to that sort of falling down drunk parties if he doesn't drink?

Mostly because all my friends do. I'd rather go with them than sit at home by myself every night. Usually there is a set of people only mildly drunk there in the circles I travel in, so it's not like everyone is falling down drunk. I basically just go and talk to people. And I don't try to spend every waking moment trying to convince everyone not to drink. Case is a small enough school where most people who would come already know my thoughts and telling them would be pointless.

[TJ in Wisco]

Before anyone says it’s impossible, I’ve made it all 22.5 years of life this far without committing a sex act, including making out and masturbation.

Believe me, nobody is surprised.

Haha I bet there are plenty of nerdy individuals out there like me with no gf and who don't have random hook-ups, mostly from never attending a party (though I usually go to parties as the only sober one since most of my best friends have a rather different outlook on this kind of stuff than I do) 

Actually, I was more expecting to get the "You're lying, you can't possibly expect me to believe you don't masterbate" line from people.

I actually really like the fact that you have been nothing but amicable and friendly since arriving here.  I admit my first thought was "  Another Republican from Ohio"... but you're actually just a nice guy who happens to disagree with me.

That said,

the "I'm saving myself for marriage" thing is nothing but a defense mechanism.  If you don't have the self courage to get a girl, I don't believe you'd have the courage to say no if the situation presented itself.  Just my humble opinion, of course.

Thank you very much for your compliments. I hope to always remain that way and recognize that agreement should not be necessary to treat people with respect.

As for the “saving it for marriage”, well, there’s no way I can say for certain that I will do the right thing when placed into any situation and premarital sex is no exception. It is entirely possible that I will fail and not recognizing this would be rather naïve. I hope not to, but only time will tell!

[ilikeverin]

Lifestyle choice.

This obsession with genetics explaining every part of our behaviour is one of the most disturbing traits of modernity.

The refusal to accept genetics explaining any part of behavior is one of the most disturbing traits of the 20th century

Really ? I honestly don't see how so.

Well, there's this, but I was mostly being facetious.  However, I do think closing your eyes and pretending that heritability doesn't exist is an outrage in the scientific community.

Does it matter?

It does, for ideological matters. Believing in biological determinations or in free will leads to two very different visions of humanity.

As Al has stated repeatedly, whether you believe any particular trait/action is innate or not should not affect your judgment of the morality of that trait/action.

I'm interested in hearing how my worldview is defective, though, especially since, politically, we seem to be on the correct side

[Joe Republic]

Here's a section taken from one of my old Psych textbooks from my college days.  Enjoy.

Abnormal Psychology - Seligman, Walker & Rosenhan 2001


Origins of Sexual Orientation

When does a male become heterosexual or homosexual?  How does it happen?  Once sexually active, can he change if he wants to?  We must distinguish between “exclusive” or “non-optional” homosexuals on the one hand and bisexuals on the other, since most men who have sex with other men are bisexuals.  For as far back as they can remember, men who are exclusively homosexual have been erotically interested only in males.  They have sexual fantasies only about males.  They fall in love only with males.  When they masturbate or have wet dreams, the objects are always males.  The orientation of the exclusive male homosexual - and of the exclusive heterosexual - is firmly made.  How is sexual orientation laid down?

Fetal Hormones

A major theory of the origin of homosexuality holds that the tendency is laid down before birth by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and neurological processes, and that this orientation is activated by hormonal changes at the onset of puberty (Bancroft, 1994; Ellis and Ames, 1987; McClintock and Herdt, 1996).  Learning only alters how, when, and where homosexuality will be expressed.  According to the Ellis-Ames fetal disruption theory, the crucial neurochemical events that control masculinization occur during the second to fourth months of pregnancy.  This sequence of events is delicate and exquisitely timed and, if it is disrupted, incomplete masculinization of the fetus will occur.  The fetus is partly masculinized, however, with a male gender identity and male external organs.  The main effect of fetal disruption is to change in utero just one aspect of his erotic life: sexual attraction to men rather than to women (Gladue, Green, and Hellman, 1984).

This view does not say that sexual orientation is determined in the womb.  Rearing, role models, pubertal hormones, genes, the content of late childhood play, fantasies and reams, and early sexual experiences all probably also play a role (Bailey and Zucker, 1995).  In fact, Bem (1996) acknowledges the role fetal hormones and other biological influences play; he theorizes, however, that these merely create a temperament that is attracted to exotic, rather than sex-typical, activities.  In contrast, the fetal hormone view asserts that hormonal events in the womb create a strong predisposition to homosexuality or heterosexuality, leaving the later pathways to be discovered.

Anatomical Basis for Sexual Orientation

Human sexual orientation may even have a basis in the anatomy of the brain (Allen and Gorshi, 1992; Reite et al., 1995; Swaab, Gooren, and Hofman, 1995).  Brain researcher Simon LeVay (1991) examined the brains of dead homosexual men, heterosexual men, and heterosexual women.  Most were AIDS victims.  He focused his autopsy on one small area, the medial anterior hypothalamus.  This area is implicated in male sexual behavior, and men usually have more tissue here than women.  He found a remarkably large difference in the amount of tissue: heterosexual men have twice as much as homoexual men, who have about the same amount of tissue as women.  Moreover, the anterior hypothalamus is just the area that controls male sexual behavior in rats, and this area develops when the brains of male rats are hormonally masculinized before birth.  So it seems possible that hormonal disruption during early pregnancy may result in a smaller medial anterior hypothalamus, which may in turn affect sexual orientation.

Too little research has been done on lesbians to know if the same theories might apply to female homosexuals.  It is unknown if a slight masculinization of a female fetus (chromosomally XX) produces lesbians.  It is possible, but still controversial, that lesbianism is the mirror image of male homosexuality.  Lesbians, unlike exclusive male homosexuals, however, commonly report choosing homosexuality after adolescence (Bailey, Kim, Hills, and Linsenmeier, 1997; Seidman and Rieder, 1994).

[UpcomingYouthvoter]

Genertic and proud independent Democrat.

[Boris]

Why people continue to go to that kind of parties baffles me.  The alcohol is usually very, very low-caliber.  Why people go to some sh**ty university party and drink abominations like Natty Lite when they could invest in a nice bottle of decent whisky or a pack of decent beer and drink at home is beyond me. 

girls and drinking games

[The Mikado]

I'd take my solitude and alcohol as a pair.  I don't particularly like people, but I do like booze.

[I'm Not a Witch]

How did the subject of partying get brought up in the topic about homosexuality? I'm going to assume that that was done unintentionally.

I'll admit, I don't know everything there is to know about sexual orientation, but I don't like it when people say that homosexuality is a choice. Being gay, I can tell you that it's not. None of us choose to be this way. Why would anyone choose to subject him or herself to a lifestyle full of shame, embarrassment and discrimination where (s)he has to live in constant fear of having his/her life threatened simply because of what (s)he does in the privacy of his/her own bedroom? Honestly, how can you say that people CHOOSE to want that? If you argue that homosexuality is a choice, then heterosexuality must be a choice, too. So when did you choose to be straight?

People who say that being gay is a choice usually follow it up with, "It's a choice, so you can choose to change your ways and 'see the light.'" I for one can say that I have never been sexually attracted to a woman. Once (AT A PARTY - okay, I can see where the party issue was brought up now, lol) this really pretty blonde-haired, blue-eyed cheerleader sat on my lap and started licking inside my ear and kissing my neck and tried to get me worked up, but nothing was going on down there. Ten minutes later I had a blonde-haired, blue-eyed boy sitting on my lap doing the exact thing and long story short, we proceeded to the bedroom. (Sorry, TMI I know) Now when I was much younger (talking kindergarten years), I had a "girlfriend" (keep in mind a "girlfriend" in kindergarten is different than having a girlfriend in high school). Obviously, when you're in kindergarten, you don't have a girlfriend because you're sexually attracted to her and want to have sex with her. When you're that age, you pretty much do what your parents tell you do, and it's "expected" of boys to think girls are pretty. Now before kindergarten, during my preschool years, thinking back, I do think I had a "crush" on a boy who once stole my toy tractor while we were outside playing.

People often ask me, "When did you KNOW you were gay?" No one has ever asked me, "When did you choose to be gay?" To answer that question, I think I knew something was "wrong" when I started going through puberty. I watched a lot of "Skinemax" as a child when my parents were asleep, and I just always remembered paying more attention to the men and never the women. When I was in junior high, I had heard rumors going around that people thought I was gay. I didn't know what it meant but eventually I knew what it meant and why they thought that. I played volleyball with the girls; I didn't play basketball with the boys. All of my best friends were girls. Surprisingly, I wasn't ever bullied or teased for it (and I went to one of the smallest public schools in the state of Missouri in a very rural community).

I feel like I'm going off on a tangent. I guess in conclusion, I know that it is NOT a choice, but at the same time, I don't really feel that it can be completely genetic. It's a complicated issue, and while I can't provide many facts (I do know that homosexuality has been found in 450 species, and homophobia has only been found in one. Which one seems unnatural to you?), all I can give is my anecdotal experiences of what it's been like being gay. Hope I've contributed something to this discussion, and if I haven't, I apologize.