Homosexuality

[afleitch]

A big ball of factors. Same with heterosexuality (which is never under the same degree of scrutiny and perhaps it is about time it was...)

In the end, it doesn't matter.

[afleitch]

Democrat, Lifestyle Choice

This is not a very good poll.  I chose lifestyle choice because I'm not comfortable with the whole gay thing, but truth be told there just isn't enough science to support either view.

Well I can help you with part of it. I'm gay; so if you consider it to be a 'lifestyle choice', ask me anything you want on it.

[afleitch]

Democrat, Lifestyle Choice

This is not a very good poll.  I chose lifestyle choice because I'm not comfortable with the whole gay thing, but truth be told there just isn't enough science to support either view.

Well I can help you with part of it. I'm gay; so if you consider it to be a 'lifestyle choice', ask me anything you want on it.

Any blood relatives that are gay? 

Yes; 2.

[afleitch]

Democrat, Lifestyle Choice

This is not a very good poll.  I chose lifestyle choice because I'm not comfortable with the whole gay thing, but truth be told there just isn't enough science to support either view.

Well I can help you with part of it. I'm gay; so if you consider it to be a 'lifestyle choice', ask me anything you want on it.

Any blood relatives that are gay? 

Yes; 2.

Current or former generation?  Grew up in the same area or some distance away.

(You have me beat by one.)

Added:  One parent's side or both parents sides'.

One grew up in California The other grew up not far from me. And, same generation.

[afleitch]

Afleitch, is it true that there's pressure in the gay community to not be the "stereotypical" gay guy?  I've noticed that the gay people I know tend to be downright annoyed at effeminate "fairies" and say that they make the rest of the gay community look bad.

What I heard is more that on the market, the effeminate gay men rank lower. But my source might be unreliable.

There is the same diverse choice amongst gays as there is amongst striaghts as to what people find attractive. I don't think effeminate men 'rank lower'; there are those who find them their type And tastes change as you get older I find. I prefer geeky, less fussy, slightly 'laddish' men but that's just me

[afleitch]

Anyone who thinks about the nature of homosexuality, if not gay themselves must reflect upon the nature of their heterosexuality and the huge variety of genetic (and yes it must have a genetic basis given that we share genes with all species but not all species procreate, or reproduce sexually in the manner in which we do), pre-natal, chemical and environmental factors that shape this.

Then they should consider; what does it matter? Why should it have a bearing on how someone is treated, or what rights they have?

[afleitch]

But I'm reasonably sure that it is a fundamentally different phenomenon than the physics and physiology behind what makes males lust for females and females lust for males.

It's worth remembering that homosexual behaviour has been documented in animals seperated by as much as, if not more than 200 million years of evolution...and countless generations later it is still here. Indeed it appears to have been around since animal species first started sexual procreation. It seems to go hand in hand.

[afleitch]

I do doubt that sexual preference is a choice, though (excluding rape) sexual activity is.

As is eating and drinking; if you want to get all technical about it. And while abstaining from sexual activity won't kill us, it isn't particularly psychologically healthy. There is no reason to advise someone to abstain completely from homosexual behaviour if they are gay except for doctrinal (and usually religious doctrinal) reasons.

[afleitch]

Well, I know that homosexuality is observed in nature and I know that for me, my heterosexuality was never a choice. So I don't know, it could be like why a person has a certain personality or develops a certain kind of distinct identity. And sometimes a person's identity fluctuates, like their sexuality, but I do not think that homosexuality is a conscious choice that one sits down and makes, I think it's a lot more complex than that, probably tied more closely to one's identity. 

What is interesting is how unwilling people are to subject heterosexuality to the same scrutiny; i.e the idea that homosexuality may not quite be genetic (so let's not be too hasty in the whole 'rights' thing) yet heterosexuality somehow is, yet both as you say are observed patterns of sexual behaviour in nature. Understanding one is the key to understanding the other.The very fact that same sex behaviour is exhibited by me and by a seagull, despite several hundred millions years of evolution between us and there continues to be same sex orientated seagulls, cats, whales, monkeys and humans despite each successive generation dying off suggests it is a genetic trait. Indeed it occurs in every observed animal species that reproduces by procreation (which as a group of living things is coinicidently in the minority), and procreation is as much a social act as it is a sexual one. So it's interesting.

[afleitch]

Another possibility that's somewhat likely is that it's influenced by some developmental condition, ie. the level of some hormone in utero, that appears vaguely random but not entirely. Or some combination of many different things.

Well it's already established there is a combination of factors in play. It's partly genetic as it's occurrence in both identical twins is 70% higher than it is in non-identical twins. It's partly hormonal as there is a correlation between high levels of testosterone exposure in the womb and homosexuality in men and it's partly based on uteral conditions as incidences are higher in younger sons of women and in the children of women who are prone to miscarry etc.

In all honesty it doesn't matter except that it has to because for some people it's the only guarantor that people who are homosexual have inherent rights to simply be and to express themselves in the face of the 'but what about god' crowd (who ironically fail to see their own expression of faith as being the very definition of a 'lifestyle choice')