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Governor TJ
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« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2011, 10:59:32 am »
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The map above shows the abortion laws in each state prior to Roe v. Wade (from wikipedia). For some reason the key is cut off. Red is illegal, purple is legal only in case of rape, blue is legal for health reasons, green is legal only for both (blue + purple = green), and yellow is legal on demand. Heck, even Vermont had more pro-life laws than the south!

http://books.google.com/books?id=LSO5YDifWz8C&pg=PA209&vq=history+baptist+abortion&sig=KZgjPsS22v-Yl0bLPRrl6eu-Etk#v=onepage&q&f=false

On pg. 12 of this book it talks about the Southern Baptists (arguable) endorsement of Roe v. Wade. The Baptist Press printed that “Religious liberty, human equality, and justice are advanced by the Supreme Court abortion decision [Roe v. Wade].” Former President of the Southern Baptist Convention W. A. Criswell said, “I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person.”

The Southern Baptists didn’t start to really oppose abortion until 1980. I understand that not all southerners are Southern Baptists, but this has always given me the impression that the south never really was as conservative as it is today back then. I was searching for abortion polling by state for the 1970s vs. today and have been unable to find any so I am unable to quantitatively back this assertion up (at least on that issue). Perhaps there are other issues the south had moved leftward on to compensate for this, but I cannot really think of any.
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freepcrusher
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« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2011, 11:04:57 am »
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The map above shows the abortion laws in each state prior to Roe v. Wade (from wikipedia). For some reason the key is cut off. Red is illegal, purple is legal only in case of rape, blue is legal for health reasons, green is legal only for both (blue + purple = green), and yellow is legal on demand. Heck, even Vermont had more pro-life laws than the south!

http://books.google.com/books?id=LSO5YDifWz8C&pg=PA209&vq=history+baptist+abortion&sig=KZgjPsS22v-Yl0bLPRrl6eu-Etk#v=onepage&q&f=false

On pg. 12 of this book it talks about the Southern Baptists (arguable) endorsement of Roe v. Wade. The Baptist Press printed that “Religious liberty, human equality, and justice are advanced by the Supreme Court abortion decision [Roe v. Wade].” Former President of the Southern Baptist Convention W. A. Criswell said, “I have always felt that it was only after a child was born and had a life separate from its mother that it became an individual person.”

The Southern Baptists didn’t start to really oppose abortion until 1980. I understand that not all southerners are Southern Baptists, but this has always given me the impression that the south never really was as conservative as it is today back then. I was searching for abortion polling by state for the 1970s vs. today and have been unable to find any so I am unable to quantitatively back this assertion up (at least on that issue). Perhaps there are other issues the south had moved leftward on to compensate for this, but I cannot really think of any.


this is why the south has been labeled at times as "reactionary"
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« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2011, 07:24:40 pm »
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Simply put, racism.

The Realignment of the Solid South transformed the area from solidly Democratic to now almost dominated by Republicans. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, passed by congressional Democrats and signed into law by President Lyndon B. Johsnon, substantially transformed the voting habits of the South as is evident today. You see some of the most racially polarized voting in the Deep South in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama where there's a white man's party and the colored folks' party. Shouldn't be that way, but that's Dixie for you.

I think it is mostly due to religious fundamentalism. Outside of Louisiana, the Bible Belt encompasses all of the South to where you can't blink without seeing a church. The Republican Party does so well in the South by playing the fear card and injecting the culture/social issues of God, guns and gays to distract their voters from the real issues. The base of the Republican Party is, after all, in the South which has the least educated populace in the nation. Stupid is as stupid does. I can't believe the traditional Confederate-flag waving pickup-driving rednecks in the South actually vote Republican because they support giving tax breaks to all 10 of the millionaires below the Mason-Dixon line. No, they vote Republican because the Democrats want to kill babies, destroy the sanctity of marriage and take away our guns and Bibles.
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« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2011, 11:03:43 am »
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Agrarian slave societies are always incredibly right-wing.
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« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2011, 03:00:20 pm »
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Agrarian slave societies are always incredibly right-wing.
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« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2011, 06:23:49 pm »
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The idea that Southerners only vote for Conservatives based on social issues, and are actually very receptive to liberal programs such as socialized medicine is largely a myth. Southerners are quite fiscally conservative as well as supporters of tradition.

If by 'southerners' you are referring primarily to white southerners, then yes, I would agree with you.  They are on average more affluent than their black counterparts who are more economically populist.
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« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2011, 08:07:13 am »
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Because people from the North are usually assholes and Southern culture is not as receptive to assholes.

That's why they hate gay guys. That makes perfect sense!

I'm sorry. But seriously. What is to be expected from people who just a half a dozen of generations ago depended on owning people?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 08:13:30 am by FL ST 800.02 »Logged


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« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2011, 12:14:50 pm »
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I dont believe it...a well throught out piece by a Democrat that did not include name calling or personal insults.  My hat goes off to you!!!


The South has always been resentful of establish Northern power. That goes all the way back to Jefferson vs. Hamilton, farmers vs. industrialists. It continued with Jackson and his fight to kill the national bank. Calhoun took it to a whole different level with his support for nullification, arguably forming the Tea Party of his day. Of course the issue of slavery and the Civil War exasperated this and turned the resent into warfare. Reconstruction, Northern industrialization, the Civil Rights movement, etc. have all played into this. This resent towards the North has evolved into anger towards Northern Culture, which has spread to the west coast. Basically the South has always resented the North, and by proxy, Washington D.C. Other posts about religion, a large number of veterans, and tradition are certainly correct. But IMO what makes the South different is that it has historically always been fighting against Northern influence, which today means social secularism, government intervention in the economy, and a welfare state (or so they believe).

Also, in regards to the claim that the South is somehow economically to the left, that's just not true. They are not progressive in any political areas, though they can be populist. Essentially, they want low taxes, less regulation, but also Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. There are not many union members in the South, and so there isn't a lot of support for organized labor. But if anything, the old-style populism is being pushed aside. The South isn't poor backwoods hollers any more. It is increasingly an exurban society of middle class whites who have gone to college, make a steady income, and are quite religious. Thus, you don't get many Jim Eastland's and Russell Long's any more. Now you get Richard Burr and Lindsey Graham.
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« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2011, 12:17:43 pm »
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Memphis...are you a racist???


The South is the part of the country least receptive to the idea of a welfare state. It all goes to the coloreds anyway, right?
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« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2011, 12:21:39 pm »
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I don't know if I would use those words but what you communicate is generally true.


Because people from the North are usually assholes and Southern culture is not as receptive to assholes.
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« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2011, 12:26:22 pm »
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I'm Not a Witch...you have a lot of people tell you that you are an intolerant bigot dont you.  You seem like someone full of fear and hate towards anyone whose ideas are simply different from you.  You need sensitivity traning!!



Simply put, racism.

The Realignment of the Solid South transformed the area from solidly Democratic to now almost dominated by Republicans. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, passed by congressional Democrats and signed into law by President Lyndon B. Johsnon, substantially transformed the voting habits of the South as is evident today. You see some of the most racially polarized voting in the Deep South in Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama where there's a white man's party and the colored folks' party. Shouldn't be that way, but that's Dixie for you.

I think it is mostly due to religious fundamentalism. Outside of Louisiana, the Bible Belt encompasses all of the South to where you can't blink without seeing a church. The Republican Party does so well in the South by playing the fear card and injecting the culture/social issues of God, guns and gays to distract their voters from the real issues. The base of the Republican Party is, after all, in the South which has the least educated populace in the nation. Stupid is as stupid does. I can't believe the traditional Confederate-flag waving pickup-driving rednecks in the South actually vote Republican because they support giving tax breaks to all 10 of the millionaires below the Mason-Dixon line. No, they vote Republican because the Democrats want to kill babies, destroy the sanctity of marriage and take away our guns and Bibles.
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« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2011, 04:52:22 pm »
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To all those who shout: RACISM! RACISM! RACISM! or Bible Belt Ignorance, that's simply an easy way out of addressing far more deep seeded cultural and historical differences between the North and the South. As I stated earlier, the current opposition to the liberalism and progressivism embodied in the Democratic Party is simply the most recent example. But here's a deeper explanation of the cultural differences:

Southern culture is largely rooted in a common ancestry. The Scotch-Irish tradition goes back hundreds of years, since they first came off the ship and went to work in the fields and hills of the old Confederacy. By and large they were Presbyterian, hard-working, and independent. Over the centuries, they would develop a unique and vibrant culture that resisted authority from a "foreign" power. That's how they saw England, how they saw Abraham Lincoln and the Republicans, and how they saw America's enemies throughout history. In Sen. Jim Webb's "Born Fighting", he goes into more detail on this subject. This fierce independence has transitioned into an opposition to what they see as an oppressive and overbearing government and media, which calls them ignorant, racist, and religious zealots.

In contrast, Northern culture is a real melting pot of various ethnicities and immigrant groups. No one group is dominant, and many (including myself) can trace their heritage to at least several different ethnic groups. This has in turn led to a natural "liberalism"; that is to say that by and large Northerners don't often have one singular culture to cling to, and are generally more willing to adopt unique and different trends than their Southern counterparts. In general, homogenized ethnic groups, North, South, East, and West, tend to be more resistant to changes forced on them from a centralized authority. This explains one aspect of why the South is more conservative.

This is all coming from someone who is a Northerner through and through, though I do have some Southern (Cajun) ancestry.
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« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2011, 12:49:54 pm »
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I've noticed that the West and the South, politically speaking, are extremely different.

The westerners are much more environmentally conscience, seem to lack significant interest in social issues, and tend to be much more anti-war/anti-conflict than their predecessors. When I think of a western voter, I tend to have the images in my head of:


Governor Schweitzer of Montana and family


Skiing, trendy, new-age yuppies in Aspen, Colorado who helped flip the state


Seattle's public scene, looking like something out of a Batman comic book of a night in Gotham City.

In other words, you get a feeling of very progressive trends.

On the flip side, 1980 Rural Texas isn't that far from 2011 Rural Texas. Watch "Planet Terror" or "Death Proof" from Quentin Tarantino and Robert Rodriguez and they show modern day Tennessee/Texas....and it looks like it has never changed.


Note this movie took place in 2007 rural Tennessee.


This film took place in 2007 rural Texas. Note the small-town diner, dog near the counter, smoking allowed, very laid back and not trendy at all.

I think trends are what keep the south so conservative, and if anything, Barack Obama was the most trendy of all Presidents the last 20 years.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 02:16:05 pm by Reaganfan »Logged

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« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2011, 01:30:23 pm »
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I've noticed that the West and the South, politically speaking, are extremely different.

The westerners are much more environmentally conscience, seem to lack significant interest in social issues, and tend to be much more anti-war/anti-conflict than their predecessors. When I think of a western voter, I tend to have the images in my head of:


Governor Schweitzer of Montana and family


Skiing, trendy, new-age yuppies in Aspen, Colorado who helped flip the state


Seattle's public scene, looking like something out of a Batman comic book of a night in Gotham City.

In other words, you get a feeling of very progressive trends.

On the flip side, 1980 Rural Texas isn't that far from 2011 Rural Texas. Watch "Planet Terror" or "Death Proof" from Quentin Tarantino and Robert Rodriguez and they show modern day Tennessee/Texas....and it looks like it has never changed.


Note this movie took place in 2007 rural Tennessee.


This film took place in 2007 rural Texas. Note the small-town diner, dog near the counter, smoking allowed, very laid back and not trendy at all.

I think trends are what keep the south so conservative, and if anything, Barack Obama was the most trendy of all Presidents the last 20 years.



I would agree that Obama was trendy back in 2008, though Ron Paul is now the trendy candidate. Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush had to been the trendy candidates in the 1980's. Clinton, Gore, and Dean before Obama were the trendy candidates. Mcgovern in 1972 and Eugene/Kennedy in 1968. Schweitzer family looks like your average working class family.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2011, 11:46:57 am by RFK »Logged



 
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« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2011, 10:44:50 am »
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Ron Paul was the trendy candidate for libertarians and pot heads in 2008. He's not getting the same degree of media attention/reddit posts anymore.
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« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2011, 12:25:23 pm »
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Ron Paul was the trendy candidate for libertarians and pot heads in 2008. He's not getting the same degree of media attention/reddit posts anymore.


Then who would you say is the trendy candidate of the 2012 race?
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« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2011, 12:53:15 am »
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I don't think anyone mentioned this yet.  Here's another reason why the Northeast should arguably be more conservative than the South: the North is where the Puritans settled.  The Puritans were a very religious people who wanted to turn the US into a theocratic government and were somewhat successful in doing so, hence why we have so many blue laws as remnants of their attempts.  So, I'm still confused on how states with such strict laws on alcohol became the most liberal.

Yes, I realize this is the exact opposite of my original question.  Still relevant, though.
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« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2011, 06:33:59 am »
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If by 'southerners' you are referring primarily to white southerners, then yes, I would agree with you.  They are on average more affluent than their black counterparts

This is a very good point Frodo.

To explain a persons voting habits, his social and economical position within the whole nation is not as important as it's social and economical position within his social environment, and that's especially true in rural areas.
That's why a dirt-poor farmer in a 19th century village is immune against socialist campaigns, because dirt-poor as he may be, he is still the master over a couple of completely unpropertied servants. In his village, he is middle class. So he suits up (suit inherited from his father, he himself couldn't afford one) on election day and casts his vote for the conservatives, or whatever the party of establishment may be in this story.
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« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2011, 06:54:13 am »
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I don't think anyone mentioned this yet.  Here's another reason why the Northeast should arguably be more conservative than the South: the North is where the Puritans settled.  The Puritans were a very religious people who wanted to turn the US into a theocratic government and were somewhat successful in doing so, hence why we have so many blue laws as remnants of their attempts.  So, I'm still confused on how states with such strict laws on alcohol became the most liberal.

Yes, I realize this is the exact opposite of my original question.  Still relevant, though.

A very interesting point as well.

I don't know very much about Puritan theology, but the more radical streams of Calvinism always had the potential to promote social progressive politics. Progressive, but not liberal (in the European sence).

It's like "We have to fight the Evil in this world and eliminate it, to make the world a better place" or something like that, as I said I'm not a theologian. "The Evil" may be alcohol, slavery or social injustice.

An other argument could be made that a religious tradition like Puritanism which is far less institutionalized than, let's say, Catholicism, is more susceptible to secularization. And secularization of course goes hand in hand with non-traditional political believes, be it socialism or liberalism.
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« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2011, 07:52:38 am »
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I don't think anyone mentioned this yet.  Here's another reason why the Northeast should arguably be more conservative than the South: the North is where the Puritans settled.  The Puritans were a very religious people who wanted to turn the US into a theocratic government and were somewhat successful in doing so, hence why we have so many blue laws as remnants of their attempts.  So, I'm still confused on how states with such strict laws on alcohol became the most liberal.

Yes, I realize this is the exact opposite of my original question.  Still relevant, though.

A very interesting point as well.

I don't know very much about Puritan theology, but the more radical streams of Calvinism always had the potential to promote social progressive politics. Progressive, but not liberal (in the European sence).

It's like "We have to fight the Evil in this world and eliminate it, to make the world a better place" or something like that, as I said I'm not a theologian. "The Evil" may be alcohol, slavery or social injustice.

An other argument could be made that a religious tradition like Puritanism which is far less institutionalized than, let's say, Catholicism, is more susceptible to secularization. And secularization of course goes hand in hand with non-traditional political believes, be it socialism or liberalism.

Another thing to add is that many white Southerners(if not a majority) are the descendents of Scots-Irish settlers to the region from Ulster a part of modern day Northern Ireland(Not historically known as one of the most progressive places in Europe). Amongst the various ethnic groups in Europe, Scots-Irish are also regarded as one of the most conservative and religious group of people, hence some of the roots of the Northern Ireland conflict.
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« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2011, 10:27:49 am »
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I don't think anyone mentioned this yet.  Here's another reason why the Northeast should arguably be more conservative than the South: the North is where the Puritans settled.  The Puritans were a very religious people who wanted to turn the US into a theocratic government and were somewhat successful in doing so, hence why we have so many blue laws as remnants of their attempts.  So, I'm still confused on how states with such strict laws on alcohol became the most liberal.

Yes, I realize this is the exact opposite of my original question.  Still relevant, though.

Well, NE was the most Puritanical (conservative, for the sake of argument) region of the country for many generations. But then the immigrants came. From the North there were the French, from the Atlntic both the Italians and Irish, as well as some Germans. They all brought their interpretations of scripture and their more liberal outlooks. Thus, the New England we have today.
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« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2011, 06:13:58 pm »
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Racism and religion.
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Scott
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« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2011, 12:39:59 am »
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DailyKos posted this a couple days ago.



Self-reliant?  Interesting.  And even the mountain states don't mind some government cheddar.
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« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2011, 01:37:17 am »
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And even the mountain states don't mind some government cheddar.

So much for the mountain states being the most "libertarian."
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« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2011, 04:14:29 pm »
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And even the mountain states don't mind some government cheddar.

So much for the mountain states being the most "libertarian."
Yeah.  This pretty much disproves that entirely.  All they're libertarian on is... guns.  You learn something new every day, I guess.
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