SENATE BILL: Active Vice Presidency Amendment (Tabled)

[tmthforu94]

What about this:

Changing DSoFE to a fill-in position for any cabinet office as needed?

The VP could be given an official Cabinet level position or the fill in position. It kills two birds I want dead with one bill. The Deputy position can then put his or her skills to work as needed.

Thoughts?

I actually like this idea, Napoleon. Perhaps give the option of someone outside the cabinet  getting the position if the SoFE is in desperate need but no one from the cabinet will step up.

[Cincinnatus]

Maybe the Game Reform Commission can chime into the debate

Changing the responsibilities of one position such as this isn't really the reform we're looking into.  If you want to give the VP temporary responsibilities I can see it working.  I could easily see the VP taking control of the census, but again, this isn't really "sweeping" reform that Polnut had in mind when creating the commission.  If you want to let the VP temporarily fill in, this would solve the Deputy problem.  Of course, I wouldn't want the VP filling in temporarily for GM/SOIA/SOEA, just because of the fact that the VP is elected with the President, and thus may take away from the VP's ability to be objectionable.  Even with the GM having the final word, is it really wise to give the VP influence over the GM's decision-making?  I certainly could be mistaken, but that's my take on it.

[Napoleon]

The GM positions is excluded already for that reason.

[Cincinnatus]

The GM positions is excluded already for that reason.

Yeah, I had only read up to your suggestion that the Committee respond.  I suppose this could work, as long as the GM remains objectionable, he does have the final say.  I'm still not sure about letting the VP serve out the term, instead making it on a needed basis for filling others/vacant roles.  However, if the Senate was in agreement with this, it wouldn't really bother me a whole lot.  Maybe the VP should temporarily take the responsibilities of a position, wherein after X time, if the President is unable (Of course he'd need to seek), to find a replacement for the vacancy, the VP would remain for the rest of the term?

[Marokai Backbeat]

Just wanted to chime in and say that I'm not much of a fan of these changes. I think we should give the VP unique responsibilities. If you're just going to lump it into something else you may as well abolish the position.

Can't really say much more than that. I'm busy with other unnecessarily complicated tasks.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

There's something about having a Cabinet member campaigning for reelection that I'm not completely comfortable with.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

There's something about having a Cabinet member campaigning for reelection that I'm not completely comfortable with.

I actually think that'd be fun.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

There's something about having a Cabinet member campaigning for reelection that I'm not completely comfortable with.

I actually think that'd be fun.

well it would mean that if the VP is SoFE, he'll be administering the election with his name on every ballot. since we've given SoIA and SoEA game moderator powers, that could create a conflict of interest if the VP were making stories that would impact whether or not he'd be reelected. as AG, he may be called to look into a case involving his reelection. RG, or a noncabinet position like GTO ambassador I'd be good with, but that's about it the more I consider the implications of this.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Just a few quick procedural notes.

Senator Napoleon's amendment has yet to be considered and passed. If he still desires it be passed, the process can be started. However, I will restate that the text of the amendment must be rewritten sufficiently so as to provide direction as to how and what it is amending in the Consitution, otherwise it is functionally impractical. It can't just be stuck on the end of the constitution, afterall.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

#3 looks like it would modify article I, section 1, clause 3 from "shall" to an option for the VP
the others look like they would need to be a new section in article II.

[Cincinnatus]

As my opinion was asked of earlier in this thread, I'd like to say that Shua has the right idea.  Appointing the VP to a cabinet position, in anything but a temporary time-period, isn't advised.  Even if the GM has final say, SOIA, and SOEA, all wield influence in the decision making process.  I hope this doesn't go through unless it's clear that the appointment would be a temporary position to fill until a replacement is determined.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

I happen to think this bill is a mess and would create a mess. I think it's an example of forcing a square peg in a round hole.

[Napoleon]

Are you going to help find the round peg, then, or are we going to leave an empty hole?

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Are you going to help find the round peg, then, or are we going to leave an empty hole?

There's nothing wrong with an empty hole sometimes. It let's the system breathe.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

What are doing anything hear besides competing to see who can to describe the bill in most sexual language possible?

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

No. I'm pulling out of this. No further comments, Mr. PPT.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Well since the debate has seized up, I think it's time for a little lubrication.


Hey, if you can't beat....

[Napoleon]

Well since the debate has seized up, I think it's time for a little lubrication.


Hey, if you can't beat....

If you can't beat, try Viagra?

Look guys I need to know what kind of compromise can be reached. We are here to debate and legislate, not give simple opinions better saved for expression during a final vote. Please be constructive.

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

Compromise is nice when it is the smartest thing to do. In this case, I can't think of an intelligent compromise. In my opinion, and that's what we are all going off of because there's no proof either way of who's right, changing or combining the duties of the VP into another office or what have you will likely just cause mass confusion. The VP is a do-nothing position. Everyone knows that. But when the President is gone, like when Lief took time off, the VP becomes important. If we start giving the VP other jobs, make it a cabinet position or the like, then if the president does go missing, the VP may have all these other duties on top of being the president.

All sexual jokes aside, it's best we leave this be and let the VP be the VP, which is to do nothing unless he is needed.

[Napoleon]

What about when the SoIA or AG, etc. takes time off?

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

What about when the SoIA or AG, etc. takes time off?

In those cases, they normally step down if they are going to be gone long. It's easier to reappoint someone than it is to have another national election. That said, I can't remember a time where a cabinet member's activity really hurt the game except when we went through a stint of having crappy GMs.

[Bacon King]

Let me chime in here, if I may.

I don't think giving the VP the ability to also be a Cabinet member will really do much of anything. I agree with many other Senators that this bill in its current state would raise more issues than it solves.'

If a Vice President is required to have a Cabinet job, then that takes away the Senate's power over Presidential appointments. If it's something that's simply allowed but not mandated, I'm assuming it'll probably be mostly ignored most of the time. Another problem is with the line of succession- isn't it a bit legally murky when one person holds two (or three?) different spots on it? Also, these requirements would make it more difficult when a VP is serving as Acting President; either you give the Acting President four different jobs (Prez, VP, PPT, and his cabinet position), or you suddenly have no PPT and you're missing a Cabinet member whenever the VP has to temporarily ascend to the Presidency.

I think this bill is trying to modify the office of the Vice Presidency in contradictory ways. Either give the VP greater control over the Senate or give him stronger ties to the Executive branch; doing both would entirely wreck the separation of powers.

Now, VP Cabinet member is a bad idea, IMO, for reasons I've already said. However, I think there is merit in giving the VP a stronger role as President of the Senate. This amendment isn't the way to go about it, however, because Constitutionally the President Pro Tempore only has powers delegated to him by the President of the Senate. Besides, a PPT would still be a good idea to have around in the event of a VP absence or something. And at any rate, changes in the VP/PPT relationship would only need to be done as an OSPR resolution, not a Constitutional amendment

Also, one more idea I remember from reading this discussion; someone mentioned giving the DSOFA the ability to fill in for other cabinet members? I do like that idea, making that office into some sort of Secretary-Without-Portfolio that could assist the other Cabinet officers as necessary and temporarily fill in any vacancies. But that'd probably be best as the subject of a different bill. Definitely wouldn't need to be a Constitutional amendment, at any rate.

Anyways, sorry for the rant!

[Fmr. Pres. Duke]

No, thank you. It's always nice to have backup.

[Napoleon]

Vice President Bacon King, are you reading Kalwejt's proposal or mine? It sounds like you are talking about Kalwejt's because mine addresses much of what you seem to be concerned about.

[Napoleon]

I'd like to table this.

In a few days I will introduce my more well receaived idea but no reason to waste space on the Senate floor.

Thank you to those who participated in a debate focused on finding the best possible solution. That is what I sought in assuming sponsorship.