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Author Topic: Obama storms out of debt ceiling talks  (Read 3052 times)
Keystone Phil
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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2011, 09:58:32 pm »
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Now please keep in mind, America: it's the Republican leadership that's acting childish, not the individual that stormed out of negotiations.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-republicans-walk-vp-bidens-debt-talks/story?id=13917319

I'm not the one lecturing others on who is being a child and who is being an adult.
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« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2011, 10:27:13 pm »
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Now please keep in mind, America: it's the Republican leadership that's acting childish, not the individual that stormed out of negotiations.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-republicans-walk-vp-bidens-debt-talks/story?id=13917319

I'm not the one lecturing others on who is being a child and who is being an adult.

... contradiction in bold.
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« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2011, 10:38:21 pm »
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 I've heard it reported a couple of times that; %60+ do not want to raise the debt ceiling. It's plausible that half of those simply want to make a stand, that is, to stand on one's own two feet, as a self-sustaining society. Use what ever analogy you prefer, climb mountains , go to mars and so on...

 with such a enormous achievement to be realized, people, their abilities to recognize their position and manage it will be the test, the presidents version, as it been said here, will not be helpful. People losing it in the Rodney King scenario will only make it worse for more than necessary.

a biden moment has its merits - this is the big F'n deal

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anvi
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« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2011, 10:49:02 pm »
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I now positively want congress not to raise the debt ceiling.  Congress decides whether of not to raise the ceiling, and congress also tells the executive branch how much to spend on what, so the decision is theirs.  Let the president make his case to the public about whom he wants more taxes from and when and what spending he wants to cut for whom, let congress make their case to the public about what spending they want to cut for whom in exchange for no tax hikes at all on anybody, presumably ever.  Then, just let August 2nd pass, let the public see how much government spending will have to be cut in the wake of the default, and what the effects are just so nobody ever has to pay any more taxes in any form, and let the public decide what they want.  I was against a version of this idea before, but now, well, sometimes the best way to deal with a virus is to inject the virus.  If talking is doing no good, then stop talking; silence and consequences can be quite good things all by themselves.

The financial crash of 2008 was everybody's fault; it was the fault of the Fed, of politicians on both sides wanting to artificially inflate home ownership, of GSE's that crafted a mortgage investment model, of banks and Wall Street deciding to cash in by using that model, and for those Americans who bought houses that they honestly couldn't afford.  If there is a crash of 2011, it will again be everybody's fault, Dems resisting any kind of entitlement reform and need for a broader and less progressive tax base, Pubbies for their very practiced my-way-or-the-abyss negotiation tactics and worship of private-sector profit-maximization as the only worthwhile thing about life, and the American people for lining up behind them year after year after ever-more-miserable year.  I'm serious, we should honestly blame ourselves for all of this.  I certainly blame myself.  I supported Obama in '08, and in that, I was being much too naive for someone who should know better.  Not that anybody else was a better choice.  But, all I do is support politicians who I naively think can accomplish anything, and then, when they don't, sit on the sidelines and bitch in internet forums; there's no particular virtue in that at all, and it sure doesn't make me any better than any of them.  Why blame the politicians when it was we who hired them all?

So, Obama is impatient and has a temper and Cantor is a cardboard-cutout parody of himself.  That's supposed to be news to anyone?  

Well, it's not news at all.  The real news...will be coming shortly.  Tongue   And my only editorial on the news that's coming is that we all absolutely deserve it.
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jfern
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« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2011, 10:50:29 pm »
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Wait, did Obama realize that when he, sanes, and Wall Street are on the same side, it's not a good time to fold?
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« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2011, 10:54:13 pm »
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Maybe if they weren't so bent on destroying the economy to win an election, it wouldn't come to this. The opposition has to be taken to task and no real swing voter is going to object to that. Why not hold Republicans accountable? They control the House and can't pretend as if they have no part in fixing problems.
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« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2011, 11:05:25 pm »
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Yes, finally someone told that weasel Cantor to eat it. Two thumbs up.
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« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2011, 11:10:42 pm »
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Love this quote from a staffer.
"Cantor's account of tonight's meeting is completely overblown," a House Democratic aide told HuffPost. "For someone who knows how to walk out of a meeting, you'd think he['d] know it when he saw it.
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« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2011, 11:41:52 pm »
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I now positively want congress not to raise the debt ceiling.  Congress decides whether of not to raise the ceiling, and congress also tells the executive branch how much to spend on what, so the decision is theirs.  Let the president make his case to the public about whom he wants more taxes from and when and what spending he wants to cut for whom, let congress make their case to the public about what spending they want to cut for whom in exchange for no tax hikes at all on anybody, presumably ever.  Then, just let August 2nd pass, let the public see how much government spending will have to be cut in the wake of the default, and what the effects are just so nobody ever has to pay any more taxes in any form, and let the public decide what they want.  I was against a version of this idea before, but now, well, sometimes the best way to deal with a virus is to inject the virus.  If talking is doing no good, then stop talking; silence and consequences can be quite good things all by themselves.

The financial crash of 2008 was everybody's fault; it was the fault of the Fed, of politicians on both sides wanting to artificially inflate home ownership, of GSE's that crafted a mortgage investment model, of banks and Wall Street deciding to cash in by using that model, and for those Americans who bought houses that they honestly couldn't afford.  If there is a crash of 2011, it will again be everybody's fault, Dems resisting any kind of entitlement reform and need for a broader and less progressive tax base, Pubbies for their very practiced my-way-or-the-abyss negotiation tactics and worship of private-sector profit-maximization as the only worthwhile thing about life, and the American people for lining up behind them year after year after ever-more-miserable year.  I'm serious, we should honestly blame ourselves for all of this.  I certainly blame myself.  I supported Obama in '08, and in that, I was being much too naive for someone who should know better.  Not that anybody else was a better choice.  But, all I do is support politicians who I naively think can accomplish anything, and then, when they don't, sit on the sidelines and bitch in internet forums; there's no particular virtue in that at all, and it sure doesn't make me any better than any of them.  Why blame the politicians when it was we who hired them all?

So, Obama is impatient and has a temper and Cantor is a cardboard-cutout parody of himself.  That's supposed to be news to anyone?  

Well, it's not news at all.  The real news...will be coming shortly.  Tongue   And my only editorial on the news that's coming is that we all absolutely deserve it.

I agree with your conclusion about who is to blame.  We buy Chinese like we're hungry Jews on Christmas Night, then look around for someone to blame for the state of the economy.  But as for Obama, what can he possibly do here?  He's dependent on congress passing his proposals.  He proposed a plan to reduce the debt by $4 trillion and was rejected.  Who cares if he has a temper and Republicans inevitably distort their account of what happened for political advantage?  There is no equivalence between GOP and Democratic behavior here, let alone Obama who is presiding as if he were an Independent. The solution is easy.  We need the debt ceiling raised? The GOP blocks it.  We need more stimulus? The GOP blocks it.  We need effective financial regulation?  The GOP blocks it.  We need anti-global warming policy? The GOP denies its reality.  Divided government is nothing but gridlock and with this government, it's paralysis trying to get out of the way of a freight train.  So pick the less insane party and give it full control of government.
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« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2011, 11:44:14 pm »
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Now that's a good Alan Grayson-style Democrat right there.
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« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2011, 11:48:07 pm »
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Awesome!  Obama finally reveals he has a spine of steel underneath his suit and tie, and knows how to fight.  Let's hope he sticks to his guns when August 2 comes around, and calls the GOP bluff. 

Yes, by cutting off Social Security.
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2011, 12:07:25 am »
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Now please keep in mind, America: it's the Republican leadership that's acting childish, not the individual that stormed out of negotiations.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-republicans-walk-vp-bidens-debt-talks/story?id=13917319

I'm not the one lecturing others on who is being a child and who is being an adult.

... contradiction in bold.

Phil criticizing Obama for his temper is like Mel Gibson accusing Joe Lieberman for antisemitism.
 
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anvi
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« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2011, 12:55:40 am »
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Joementum,

Oh, I don't disagree about your point regarding no equivalence.  If Mahatma Gandhi had to negotiate with Eric Cantor, I think he'd have slammed some doors quite a while ago too.  And, as mentioned, I find the way the GOP "negotiates" completely odious.  They started out, was it in March?, telling the White House they wanted a budget deal that had an 85%-15% split in spending cuts-tax increases based on their own economic team's study, and when the White House responded with a figure of 83%-17%, the Pubbies walked out saying they wanted tax hikes entirely excluded from the budget deal, and if the Dems didn't buy it, they wouldn't raise the ceiling.  Now, if it was me, I'd obviously have been yelling and slamming doors.  But I'm bad that way.  

Now, a president who had some executive experience and carried around a pair, in an ideal world, would at that point just given Boehner a polite call and said: "by the way, John, we're done talking about tying the debt ceiling to your latest budget outlays.  I'm gonna give a national, prime-time address, tell the public about those negotiations and tell them what I think the consequences will be to them in not raising the debt ceiling, and recommend Simpson-Bowles.  You all tell the American people what you want, and otherwise, vote as you see fit.  Have a lovely day, and please say hi to the Mrs."  If they want the country to go into default and wreak havoc on the country over not being able to haggle over 2% of tax revenues over the next ten years, out-years during which the recession will have continued to wane, mind you, then I'd let them--they're Congress and it's their decision, and for their decision, they're answerable, just like the president is.  The cynical and nihilistic GOP "negotiation" tactics work because the president lets them work, and that's a failure of leadership.  Late might be better than never, of course, but knowing what one is doing is better than not knowing what one is doing.  But, this is all, of course, wishful thinking.  Like I said, I couldn't be that ideal, I'm unfortunately rather prone to fits myself.

Now, having said all that, the Dems really do have to get themselves unstuck from some of their sacred cows too.  Entitlements really are facing a crisis on a massive scale, and if we can't broaden our tax base to generate more revenue than comes from just trying to "soak the rich," especially in a downturn, or if we can't restructure the programs both more fairly and in such a way that they cost less, or, what would be the best solution, if they can't agree on ways to actually control health care cost inflation in this country, we absolutely are going to be in very deep trouble soon.  The fact that some Dems in Congress and many in the liberal media don't acknowledge that is really irresponsible.  
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2011, 12:56:53 am »
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Now please keep in mind, America: it's the Republican leadership that's acting childish, not the individual that stormed out of negotiations.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-republicans-walk-vp-bidens-debt-talks/story?id=13917319

I'm not the one lecturing others on who is being a child and who is being an adult.

... contradiction in bold.

Not a contradiction at all. I never said Obama or Republicans aren't acting like children. However, the former and his devout followers are lecturing the latter for acting like children when they're just as guilty.


Phil criticizing Obama for his temper is like Mel Gibson accusing Joe Lieberman for antisemitism.
 

And didn't you recently mock someone for having to pay for sex? Or was it you complaining about fats? I don't think you want to pull a "pot calling the kettle black" line on anyone, my friend.

Another newsflash: you don't know me. You don't know my temperament. I know it's funny to think that I'm thrown into a red faced, steam-out-the-ears rant every time I have to address the idiocy you try to pass off as a legitimate point but it isn't accurate.
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« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2011, 12:59:28 am »
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I suppose it is worth noting that Phil didn't get too angry or outraged when I prank called him.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2011, 01:05:26 am »
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I suppose it is worth noting that Phil didn't get too angry or outraged when I prank called him.

I vaguely remember this!
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2011, 01:10:08 am »
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Phil criticizing Obama for his temper is like Mel Gibson accusing Joe Lieberman for antisemitism.
 

And didn't you recently mock someone for having to pay for sex? Or was it you complaining about fats? I don't think you want to pull a "pot calling the kettle black" line on anyone, my friend.


Huh

As for your temper, everyone here agrees that it's pretty volatile in this forum. If you are a meek person in real life then good for you. 

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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2011, 01:13:34 am »
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Phil criticizing Obama for his temper is like Mel Gibson accusing Joe Lieberman for antisemitism.
 

And didn't you recently mock someone for having to pay for sex? Or was it you complaining about fats? I don't think you want to pull a "pot calling the kettle black" line on anyone, my friend.


Huh

As for your temper, everyone here agrees that it's pretty volatile in this forum. If you are a meek person in real life then good for you. 



Again, my posts don't give away anything about my temper . The only thing that would possibly hint at a bad temper would be excessive foul language, lots of bolding and exclamation points, etc.

Also, please tone down the rhetoric just a tad. "Everyone" agrees with you about my temper? Incorrect, sir.
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« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2011, 01:25:55 am »
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Phil criticizing Obama for his temper is like Mel Gibson accusing Joe Lieberman for antisemitism.
 

And didn't you recently mock someone for having to pay for sex? Or was it you complaining about fats? I don't think you want to pull a "pot calling the kettle black" line on anyone, my friend.


Huh

As for your temper, everyone here agrees that it's pretty volatile in this forum. If you are a meek person in real life then good for you. 



Again, my posts don't give away anything about my temper . The only thing that would possibly hint at a bad temper would be excessive foul language, lots of bolding and exclamation points, etc.

Also, please tone down the rhetoric just a tad. "Everyone" agrees with you about my temper? Incorrect, sir.

All right, not all but many people have accused you of throwing temper tantrums and personal attacks when, for example, somebody says something bad about Santorum. Badger was the last one, IIRC, who pointed that out.
I know that the anonymity of the "internets" can change somebody's character, so again if you are nothing like that IRL then good for you.

And when the hell did I write the things you said about?
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« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2011, 08:31:47 am »
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I'm glad Palin chimed in here........all is well now, people.
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memphis
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« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2011, 08:38:27 am »
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Still using gun metaphors? She deserves every bit of criticism she gets when tragedy strikes.
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« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2011, 08:56:08 am »
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Still using gun metaphors? She deserves every bit of criticism she gets when tragedy strikes.

Lock and Load is her motto, memphis........I wonder if her website has a target on the White House?
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2011, 10:53:15 am »
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All right, not all but many people have accused you of throwing temper tantrums and personal attacks when, for example, somebody says something bad about Santorum. Badger was the last one, IIRC, who pointed that out.

No, I don't. In fact, this example makes the least sense. If I threw a fit or hurled personal insults when someone said something bad about Santorum, that would make up about 75% of my posts.

And just because Badger pointed something out - just like you're doing now - doesn't make it true. And for you to lecture anyone about tone is pretty amusing.

Quote
And when the hell did I write the things you said about?

Not sure about the paying for sex thing but I'm pretty sure you complained about fats in the "Hot Girls Thread."
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Landslide Lyndon
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« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2011, 11:02:16 am »
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All right, not all but many people have accused you of throwing temper tantrums and personal attacks when, for example, somebody says something bad about Santorum. Badger was the last one, IIRC, who pointed that out.

No, I don't. In fact, this example makes the least sense. If I threw a fit or hurled personal insults when someone said something bad about Santorum, that would make up about 75% of my posts.

And just because Badger pointed something out - just like you're doing now - doesn't make it true. And for you to lecture anyone about tone is pretty amusing.


I don't lecture you because I'm indeed the last person to do something like that. I just pointed out something.

And in the Hot Girls Thread I defended some guys who posted chubby girls when Lief said that they were "ruining the thread with the fats".
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« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2011, 11:07:42 am »
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http://www.gallup.com/poll/148454/Debt-Ceiling-Increase-Remains-Unpopular-Americans.aspx

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/562535/201102081909/Nyet-On-Debt.aspx

Mr. president, please make this an issue with the American people. Just make sure you listen, rather than tell them what you want them to think.

Even Gallup cannot hide how unpopular it is, the same pollster that highly off in the presidential race last go around.
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