District 4- questionable result
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Nym90
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« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2004, 10:01:40 PM »

Votes of this type have been counted before, and folks of all political persuasions had no problem with it at that time.

I would hope that the change of heart on the part of some doesn't have anything to do with the fact that those votes wouldn't change the result of an election, while this one will.

Or could be that since in previous cases it wouldn't have affected who won the election, no matter what the decision was, people felt that had better things to do than sue at that time. Why sue if it would be as pointless as Republicans suing over voting irregularities in Washington, DC?

That is true.

I would personally support still standing up for what one believes is right, regardless of whether it affects the outcome. I can understand having better things to do with one's time, but a statement expressing disapproval but also acknolwedging that it isn't worth challenging would at least be appropriate, I would think.

Not to mention that several people, such as Nation, JFK, Gustaf, and Mr. Fresh, explictly stated that the votes should count. There was a time, at least, when more than just Democrats stood up for that principle.
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King
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« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2004, 10:10:32 PM »

If all it takes is a quote to win a race on this forum:

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I am the winner of the D5 race!!!
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2004, 10:15:42 PM »
« Edited: December 13, 2004, 10:22:30 PM by SE Gov. Ernest »

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John am win of D5 rayce!!!!!
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Harry
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« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2004, 10:16:32 PM »

Democratic Hawk PMed me and said he wants to challenge in court.  So apparently he is planning to sue for his voting rights.
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WMS
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« Reply #79 on: December 13, 2004, 10:21:16 PM »

Shades of 2000 here...oh well, into the judicial abyss we go! Wink + Tongue
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #80 on: December 13, 2004, 10:33:06 PM »

Democratic Hawk PMed me and said he wants to challenge in court.  So apparently he is planning to sue for his voting rights.

After deleting his own vote?  This stinks of bullsh**t.  He basically destroyed evidence if he wants to go to court, meaning that he is in violation of federal law.  You cannot destroy evidence.
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King
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« Reply #81 on: December 13, 2004, 10:35:59 PM »

WAIT, last minute votes for KING!
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Harry
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« Reply #82 on: December 13, 2004, 10:42:21 PM »

Democratic Hawk PMed me and said he wants to challenge in court.  So apparently he is planning to sue for his voting rights.

After deleting his own vote?  This stinks of bullsh**t.  He basically destroyed evidence if he wants to go to court, meaning that he is in violation of federal law.  You cannot destroy evidence.
I don't think he really knew what he was doing, but we all saw and we all know how he voted....We really shouldn't get bogged down in such picky technecalities.
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Gabu
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« Reply #83 on: December 13, 2004, 10:44:03 PM »

King just won the biggest mandate in history! Cheesy

Anyways, I dunno.  Given that the initial rule, as I understand it, was that no posts should be edited, even if the official law was unclear, I personally think that we should just go with that, let WMS win, and then introduce some voting reform into the Senate in an attempt to fix this the democratic way (maybe that could be my first project in the Senate Wink ).  Of course, I can't stop anyone from taking this to court if they so choose and have legal standing, but I don't really think it's good for the country to have at least one controversy over whether or not votes X and Y are valid after every single election.  We need solid, unambiguous rules in the Constitution that we can simple point to and say, "This is how it is".  I would really like to see Harry win, as I felt that he was a good Senator, so don't get me wrong, but I really feel that this is getting a bit much.
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Harry
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« Reply #84 on: December 13, 2004, 10:45:15 PM »

King just won the biggest mandate in history! Cheesy

Anyways, I dunno.  Given that the initial rule, as I understand it, was that no posts should be edited, even if the official law was unclear, I personally think that we should just go with that, let WMS win, and then introduce some voting reform into the Senate in an attempt to fix this the democratic way (maybe that could be my first project in the Senate Wink ).  Of course, I can't stop anyone from taking this to court if they so choose and have legal standing, but I don't really think it's good for the country to have at least one controversy over whether or not votes X and Y are valid after every single election.  We need solid, unambiguous rules in the Constitution that we can simple point to and say, "This is how it is".  I would really like to see Harry win, as I felt that he was a good Senator, so don't get me wrong, but I really feel that this is getting a bit much.
well the case is based on precedent, so it's not a new thing.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #85 on: December 13, 2004, 10:49:51 PM »

Democratic Hawk PMed me and said he wants to challenge in court.  So apparently he is planning to sue for his voting rights.

After deleting his own vote?  This stinks of bullsh**t.  He basically destroyed evidence if he wants to go to court, meaning that he is in violation of federal law.  You cannot destroy evidence.
I don't think he really knew what he was doing, but we all saw and we all know how he voted....We really shouldn't get bogged down in such picky technecalities.

We are already bogged down in technicalities.  I will simply turn it up a notch.
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Harry
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« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2004, 10:51:05 PM »

Democratic Hawk PMed me and said he wants to challenge in court.  So apparently he is planning to sue for his voting rights.

After deleting his own vote?  This stinks of bullsh**t.  He basically destroyed evidence if he wants to go to court, meaning that he is in violation of federal law.  You cannot destroy evidence.
I don't think he really knew what he was doing, but we all saw and we all know how he voted....We really shouldn't get bogged down in such picky technecalities.

We are already bogged down in technicalities.  I will simply turn it up a notch.
Anyhow, there's no point in us debating it here because all that matters is what happens in the Court.
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PBrunsel
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« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2004, 11:09:14 PM »

Harry you lost, and I urge you to accept that. I have also lost elections, but I never questioned the technicality, even in a close race.

An example is when it was special election time in the Senate and I ran against Demrepdan. Nym90 told BRTD to vote, though BRTD had not voted in any election before and missed the Presidential vote in June. I personally feel that Nym90 did some illigal campaigning to elect a firnd of his to the Senate, but I Never brought that up.

I urge you to accept that you can be defeated and that you were, and doing that makes you an honorable man whether you be a Senator or not.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #88 on: December 13, 2004, 11:17:57 PM »

Harry you lost, and I urge you to accept that. I have also lost elections, but I never questioned the technicality, even in a close race.

An example is when it was special election time in the Senate and I ran against Demrepdan. Nym90 told BRTD to vote, though BRTD had not voted in any election before and missed the Presidential vote in June. I personally feel that Nym90 did some illigal campaigning to elect a firnd of his to the Senate, but I Never brought that up.

I urge you to accept that you can be defeated and that you were, and doing that makes you an honorable man whether you be a Senator or not.

I think that Harry has lost Seante races more than any sitting Senator, and still he always manages to win in the courts.
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12th Doctor
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« Reply #89 on: December 13, 2004, 11:19:12 PM »

Harry you lost, and I urge you to accept that. I have also lost elections, but I never questioned the technicality, even in a close race.

An example is when it was special election time in the Senate and I ran against Demrepdan. Nym90 told BRTD to vote, though BRTD had not voted in any election before and missed the Presidential vote in June. I personally feel that Nym90 did some illigal campaigning to elect a firnd of his to the Senate, but I Never brought that up.

I urge you to accept that you can be defeated and that you were, and doing that makes you an honorable man whether you be a Senator or not.

I think that Harry has lost Seante races more than any sitting Senator, and still he always manages to win in the courts.
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Keystone Phil
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« Reply #90 on: December 13, 2004, 11:25:48 PM »

Wait, wait...is this a joke? I really want to know if this was a planned joke. Democratic Hawk DELETED HIS VOTE and now wants to sue for his voting rights? I have a tough time taking this seriously at this point.
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Gabu
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« Reply #91 on: December 13, 2004, 11:27:42 PM »

Wait, wait...is this a joke? I really want to know if this was a planned joke. Democratic Hawk DELETED HIS VOTE and now wants to sue for his voting rights? I have a tough time taking this seriously at this point.

I'm not really sure what the deal is with that deleted vote bit.  If the vote was indeed deleted, then it certainly can't count.
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Sam Spade
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« Reply #92 on: December 13, 2004, 11:28:34 PM »

To say I'm a little bit angry over my vote potentially being "disenfranchised" by the slimy actions of the AFDNC is the understatement of the century.

I haven't said much before now because I hoped this matter could be resolved peacefully and sensibly.  Unfortunately, it looks like now this won't be the case.

I might take this time to remind the AFDNC and Harry that one of reasons (of many) why I made the vote I did after great thought was because of the action or lack thereof that I have witnessed from their side with regards to some very low behavior on their part this past month when I registered.

I am not a naturally vindictive person.  Frankly, this whole stuff should be a little pointless entertaining fun.  Some people view otherwise, apparently, and I won't forget.

I hope the Supreme Court will resolve the manner in a thoughtful way.
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Nym90
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« Reply #93 on: December 13, 2004, 11:45:07 PM »

Ok, first off, a quote is no evidence if Fritz didn't see it. So the examples of quotes of votes for King and John are irrelevant, unless Fritz is going to testify that those votes were there.

Fritz saw Democratic Hawk's vote when the polls closed.

I did nothing illegal by reminding BRTD that there was an election. Are GOTV efforts illegal?

He did vote in the Presidential Election. His vote was the same as this, in fact, the post was edited, but not the vote, and it was allowed to stand, with people of all political persuasions agreeing that it should count. No one can give me a straight answer as to how this is different, and as to why people of ALL parties supported counting the votes then.

The post was edited, but not the vote. The vote was not edited. I hate sounding like a broken record, but....

These vile attempts to disenfranchise voters sicken me to no end. If you really want Harry to lose that badly, fine. Even if he loses, I'll know in my heart what the true result was. My conscience matters more to me than the actual result of this election.

How was Harry's previous victory invalid? Supersoulty, you of all people, who argue that Bulldog didn't deserve to win because he had much less experience than you and was much less active. M beat Harry as a write-in, when he didn't even intend to run, and never even showed up to be inaugarated!! And yet you cry foul that we didn't allow M to become a Senator when he was, at the time, not at all an active member of the Forum, and had gone weeks without posting. Are you honestly telling me that was ok? Even in this race, Harry had much more experience and has been far more active in Fantasy politics than WMS. If M had shown up to take the seat, I wouldn't have cared, but what else were we to do? Yeah, Harry lost, but the seat fell vacant because the guy who beat him, who wasn't even running, didn't show up to be inaugurated.

Now, personally, I don't care about any of that, but you were the one who brought it up as an issue in the D1 race. If M had shown up, I would have fully supported him taking the seat. Likewise, I am sure WMS will be an excellent Senator, and will quickly become very active in Fantasy politics.

Sorry, I just had to let off a little steam. It gets frustrating when people are throwing around accusations and ignoring my points completely. I apologize if my rants offend anyone, but I am very passionate about this. I apologize if I am offensive, but I don't apologize for standing up for my dearest principles.

The AFDNC is taking no official position on this manner, and Harry is not personally challenging the vote. If the voter in question wants to challenge it, he may. If not, that's fine too. It's his choice.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #94 on: December 14, 2004, 06:28:47 AM »

Given that the initial rule, as I understand it, was that no posts should be edited
And the point of that was that you shouldn't be able to change your vote midships for tactical reasons, as happened in some of the votes during the constitutional convention.
I urge that Defarge's vote be counted for The Bulldog (it doesn't change the outcome) and the Senator be censured for this shameful piece of attempted election rigging.
I mean it, too, even though I know his motives were subjectively entirely honorable.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #95 on: December 14, 2004, 06:42:50 AM »

Look... this is getting very nasty.

What I suggest to do is declare the D4 election invalid and hold a special election.

I don't really mind who wins this (I'm happy to work with either candidate) but this is getting out of control and isn't fair on Demohawk/Dave.

I'd also recommend a sit down and a cuppa.
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #96 on: December 14, 2004, 06:48:28 AM »

Look... this is getting very nasty.
I don't really mind who wins this (I'm happy to work with either candidate) but this is getting out of control and isn't fair on Demohawk/Dave.

I'd also recommend a sit down and a cuppa.
Word.
I don't care about the "special election" part...for all I care they can seat WMS, he won't be a bad Senator. But I urge voting reform now:
The "no vote editing" rule should be precisized so it's totally clear that this is about changing who you vote for.
Even if you do this, your initial vote should be counted anyways.
Alternatively, we can just abolish the vote editing rule, leaving people free to change their minds until the final minute, although I prefer the first option. (Ironically, if we had had the second option, Hugh would be president now.)

Once we're at it, I'd like to ban write-ins and move the candidate registration deadline right to poll opening time.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #97 on: December 14, 2004, 07:11:18 AM »

I don't care about the "special election" part...for all I care they can seat WMS, he won't be a bad Senator.

I think it might stop the "Senator Technicality" business...

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I agree with most of that... when I'm sworn in I'll introduce that as a bill (although it'd be better if a Senator from the outgoing Senate did it)
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minionofmidas
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« Reply #98 on: December 14, 2004, 07:47:41 AM »

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I agree with most of that... when I'm sworn in I'll introduce that as a bill (although it'd be better if a Senator from the outgoing Senate did it)
It'd be best if WMS (if he is seated) does it, actually.
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Nym90
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« Reply #99 on: December 14, 2004, 09:59:21 AM »
« Edited: December 14, 2004, 10:04:58 AM by Senator Nym90 »

I fully agree with what Lewis Trondheim has said, with the exception of Defarge being allowed to change his vote. I don't mind if he wants to change it, though it is perhaps a tad hypocritcal that some are applauding his decision to invalidate his vote, while saying that Democratic Hawk's vote is fraudulent when he didn't change his ballot. I realize no one is saying that Defarge's vote should actually count for Supersoulty, but at the same time, as you point out, Defarge changed his vote after it had already entered the ballot box, and everyone seems to support the vote no longer counting for Bulldog, even though the spirit of this law is to prevent voters from altering their vote after their vote has entered the figurative ballot box (since in the real world, you can't change a vote after you've cast it...something like what Defarge did would not be possible in a real world election).

As for the Senator Technicality stuff, I would fully argue that the will of the people was for Harry, though WMS may be the one who ends up winning on a technicality. It's not the end of the world, and I'm not going to stoop to the lows of mocking my fellow Senators as some other Atlasians appear fully prepared to do, but if they feel that making fun of their colleagues is good for Atlasia and advances the quality of the political discourse in our nation, that's their perogative.

Since the word technicality means
1. The quality or condition of being technical.
2. Something meaningful or relevant only to a specialist

Basically winning on a technicality means winning by the letter of the law, though not by the spirit. I feel that is what is likely to happen in the D4 race with WMS. I fully respect him and feel that he did absolutely nothing wrong, however, and even if he had, I wouldn't stoop to the lows of some of my soon to be colleagues and of certain party chairmen. I would likewise encourage all Atlasians of all parties to also avoid these insults as well, especially those of my own party.

So the debate we need to have in the Senate is this; should a voter be allowed to change (nullifying a previously valid ballot is changing your vote), his/her vote after it has already been cast? (ala Defarge) Should a voter be allowed to edit his/her post, but not change his/her vote, after it has already been cast? (ala Democratic Hawk)

Those are the questions we must debate and clear up, with regards to the law.

At this point, I personally favor getting rid of the rule altogether and allowing changing of ballots; one of the advantages of the Atlasian voting system is that, unlike in the United States, it is very easy for ballots to be changed. In the US, you can't change a ballot after it's been cast because it would be extremely difficult to do so, as the ballot box would have to be opened back up again, and besides you can't find which ballot is yours, anyway. It's just not practically possible. But in Atlasia, it's very easy, and as long as the edit time is before the time that the polls closed, it should be ok, in my opinion.

If this rule had been in effect in this election, Defarge's vote would have counted for Supersoulty, and Democratic Hawk's for Harry. As I am certain that everyone in Atlasia would agree that this was clearly the intention of these two voters as to who should receive their vote, I feel this makes sense.
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