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Author Topic: SENATE BILL: Empowering Regions in Elections Amendment (Failed)  (Read 3491 times)
Jbrase
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« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2011, 07:07:55 pm »
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sounds good

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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2011, 07:12:49 pm »
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sounds good



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Couldn't resist. Tongue
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Jbrase
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« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2011, 07:44:27 pm »
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ok, I accept your amendment as friendly. Happy now?


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Duke
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« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2011, 08:01:40 pm »
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The amendment makes me feel a bit better. I think this is the most logical step in the election process. The only concern I have for it is turnout would be terribly low, but I hope if this amendment makes it through the regions, it will only increase participation in regional elections.
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GM Napoleon
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« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2011, 09:12:11 pm »
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I object.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
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I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2011, 10:10:51 pm »
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I object.

Why?
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Duke
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« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2011, 10:22:45 pm »
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Maybe he wants regions to run their own presidential elections too? Now that would be a huge reform! I bet you'd salivate at the mouth, Marokai!
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GM Napoleon
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« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2011, 10:36:35 pm »
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1. A region's governing body shall have the authority to determine procedure for administration of voting and certification of election results for their own Class A Senate elections in the months of February, June, and October.  A region's governing body shall have the authority to administer voting and certification of election results for Presidential elections consistent with federal election law in the months of February, June, and October.
 
2. A region's governing body may determine the means of election to Class A Senate election.

3. To ensure a fair process of election, any alternative system of voting chosen by the region's governing body for Class A Senate elections must be conducted in public and may not disqualify any candidate meeting the qualifications set in the Constitution.

4. If a region fails to open a vote for their Senator and President within 12 hours of when polls must open, a Federal Officer of the Executive Branch shall open the vote on behalf of the region.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2011, 10:39:34 pm »
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Maybe he wants regions to run their own presidential elections too? Now that would be a huge reform! I bet you'd salivate at the mouth, Marokai!

Well this is hardly fair. Tongue
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2011, 05:33:08 pm »
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 A made a few minor clarifications to the text of my amendment to improve clarity. The substance hasn't changed, though.

1. A region's governing body shall have the authority to determine procedure for administration of voting and certification of election results for their own Class A Senate elections in the months of February, June, and October.  A region's governing body shall have the authority to administer voting and certification of election results for Presidential elections consistent with federal election law in the months of February, June, and October.
 
2. A region's governing body may determine the means of election to Class A Senate election.

3. To ensure a fair process of election, any alternative system of voting chosen by the region's governing body for Class A Senate elections must be conducted in public and may not disqualify any candidate meeting the qualifications set in the Constitution.

4. If a region fails to open a vote for their Senator and President within 12 hours of when polls must open, a Federal Officer of the Executive Branch shall open the vote on behalf of the region.


Are you just putting this out there for discussion or are you offering it as an amendment?
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GM Napoleon
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« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2011, 05:43:38 pm »
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Amendment...and discussion...
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I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2011, 05:56:52 pm »
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Quote from: Amendment 44:32 by Napoleon
1. A region's governing body shall have the authority to determine procedure for administration of voting and certification of election results for their own Class A Senate elections in the months of February, June, and October.  A region's governing body shall have the authority to administer voting and certification of election results for Presidential elections consistent with federal election law in the months of February, June, and October.
 
2. A region's governing body may determine the means of election to Class A Senate election.

3. To ensure a fair process of election, any alternative system of voting chosen by the region's governing body for Class A Senate elections must be conducted in public and may not disqualify any candidate meeting the qualifications set in the Constitution.

4. If a region fails to open a vote for their Senator and President within 12 hours of when polls must open, a Federal Officer of the Executive Branch shall open the vote on behalf of the region.

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Snowguy716
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« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2011, 09:39:52 pm »
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I think the amendment is good.
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« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2011, 10:35:26 pm »
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Are we talking about setting up an electoral college here? Because otherwise I don't see how the regions could administer the Presidential election.
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Senator-elect Polnut
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« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2011, 10:38:24 pm »
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Are we talking about setting up an electoral college here? Because otherwise I don't see how the regions could administer the Presidential election.

I was going to ask that question.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2011, 12:00:20 am »
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Are we talking about setting up an electoral college here? Because otherwise I don't see how the regions could administer the Presidential election.

I was going to ask that question.

Presumably the idea would be that each region counts their votes which are then presented to the SoFE to combine all the counts for the final vote.

...Which, unfortunately, is a really dumb idea. (And Duke knew I felt this way, because I posted this on the private forum. Tongue) I mean, Bgwah wanted to talk about complicated? That is unnecessarily complicated. I fail to see how it's any sort of reform, since it does nothing but confuse, and just adds extra work for all involved. Under no argument could you say the President is a regional office, unlike you could with a regional Senator, and thus allowing individual counts for President is just stupid.
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GM Napoleon
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« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2011, 12:20:21 am »
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Then there is no need to separate the Senate elections from the Presidential. Either we operate with one ballot for all races, or a separate one for federal and regional governments. I don't see how my amendment had anything to do with an electoral college, all it does is consolidate ballots, which is a good thing. The election would remain the same other than who opens the booth.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
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« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2011, 12:27:42 am »
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Then there is no need to separate the Senate elections from the Presidential. Either we operate with one ballot for all races, or a separate one for federal and regional governments. I don't see how my amendment had anything to do with an electoral college, all it does is consolidate ballots, which is a good thing. The election would remain the same other than who opens the booth.

Regional Senators should be regional offices. Subject to regional control like any other regional office. They are only connected to the presidential election because they are considered federal offices. There's a perfectly good reason for regional senate elections to be separate from the Presidential election, there isn't a perfectly good reason for breaking the Presidential ballot down to the regional level. It is confusing and causes more work for no reason and will only serve to torpedo the other change it shouldn't be sunk by.

It's not like people don't already have other regional offices to vote for at the same time as the Presidential election.
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GM Napoleon
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« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2011, 12:34:15 am »
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Anyone who can say there is a serious argument in favor of separating Presidential elections from downballot races needs their head checked.

I would support having a ballot for President and a separate polling place for everything else in real life. I also wouldn't support allowing states to have their own campaign finance laws for Senate races and federal office. I'm fine with allowing different voting systems but not at the expense of turn out and simplicity.
 
To say regional Senators should be regional offices makes no sense. I am part of the federal government. I have no say in my regional government.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 12:35:51 am by Napoleon »Logged

When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2011, 12:42:28 am »
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Anyone who can say there is a serious argument in favor of separating Presidential elections from downballot races needs their head checked.

What you're doing is pointless and will only serve as an excuse for the overall Amendment to go down in flames. Which, frankly, I suspect is the point, since as usual it's strictly the JCP popping up in opposition to any proposed change to any part of Atlasia's structure.

Regions are perfectly capable of easily and efficiently counting an election for a position that is conducted exclusively within their borders. Breaking the Presidential election down that way but still maintaining a national popular vote as the way we elect the President is only needlessly complicated and makes extra work for all involved for no reason.

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I would support having a ballot for President and a separate polling place for everything else in real life. I also wouldn't support allowing states to have their own campaign finance laws for Senate races and federal office. I'm fine with allowing different voting systems but not at the expense of turn out and simplicity.

And we arrive at the fundamental disconnect. This is a game. Games are meant to be fun and remain consistently interesting. When they fail to be interesting, people change the rules to make it interesting again. We've changed the way we elect people in the past, yet now we seem forever frozen in the current system that absolutely nobody wants to change because it makes electioneering more difficult.
 
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To say regional Senators should be regional offices makes no sense. I am part of the federal government. I have no say in my regional government.

It's a change for electoral purposes. I should've been more specific.
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GM Napoleon
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« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2011, 12:51:33 am »
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I am pretty darn certain I voted for Jbrase because I liked this proposal and that I have a pretty clear and consistent record of reform. To attempt to turn a policy debate into deceitful partisan attacks is un-unlike you but is disconnected from reality at its core.

I have a serious complaint about the particulars of this proposal and like always, you ignore the argument and continue to repeat yourself over and over again. I wonder if it is some kind of strategy to make us so sick of your constant talking points recitals that we just go along with what you want hoping you'll shut up.

You want simple: one booth per region for all offices or one booth for the federal government and another for regional. Some claim they want to generate turn out in regional elections. My amendment actually guarantees that. The current text leaves possible the adverse effect of lower Senate election turnout.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
Senator-elect Polnut
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« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2011, 12:56:16 am »
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I think considering the issues in the Southeast - one of the standards that needs to be explicit in any amendment like this is to ensure a uniform public or private voting system.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2011, 12:58:00 am »
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I am pretty darn certain I voted for Jbrase because I liked this proposal and that I have a pretty clear and consistent record of reform. To attempt to turn a policy debate into deceitful partisan attacks is un-unlike you but is disconnected from reality at its core.

All opposition voices here are from the JCP. It is not disconnected from reality when it is an observable fact. It is also a fact that your Dear Leader has been a consistent thorn in the side of any reform attempt for my entire life in Atlasia, and only very reluctantly went along with the new Constitution last year. If you voted for Jbrase because you just <3 his proposal, you don't do a very good job of showing that since the very first thing you did in this thread is immediately oppose it.

Quote
I have a serious complaint about the particulars of this proposal and like always, you ignore the argument and continue to repeat yourself over and over again. I wonder if it is some kind of strategy to make us so sick of your constant talking points recitals that we just go along with what you want hoping you'll shut up.

I am merely arguing exactly what Bgwah did a few pages ago: It is needlessly complicated and doesn't make sense. It isn't extra consolidation, it's only senseless make-work that will almost assuredly torpedo the Amendment if it makes it to referendum. It makes no sense to break the Presidential election down to the regional level when it remain a national vote. That same argument is not the case for Regional Senate elections. If you want to break the national vote for President down to the regional level, you should fundamentally alter the way we elect the President entirely, which should be done separately.

Quote
You want simple: one booth per region for all offices or one booth for the federal government and another for regional. Some claim they want to generate turn out in regional elections. My amendment actually guarantees that. The current text leaves possible the adverse effect of lower Senate election turnout.

By necessitating five different counts and additional make-work for the SoFE that has no need to actually happen.
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GM Napoleon
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« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2011, 12:59:09 am »
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I think considering the issues in the Southeast - one of the standards that needs to be explicit in any amendment like this is to ensure a uniform public or private voting system.

What happened in the Southeastern? My amendment says in public.
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When I was in the third grade, I thought that I was Jewish
Because I could count, my nose was big, and I kept my bank account fullish
I told my mom, tears blurring my vision
He said, "Mort, you've loved God since before circumcision"
Senator-elect Polnut
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« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2011, 01:04:17 am »
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I think considering the issues in the Southeast - one of the standards that needs to be explicit in any amendment like this is to ensure a uniform public or private voting system.

What happened in the Southeastern? My amendment says in public.

I believe - the Senators from the SE might be able to enlighten us on this - I heard something about an amendment to allow the SE to hold secret ballots at the regional level?
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