SENATE BILL: Empowering Regions in Elections Amendment (Failed)

[Marokai Backbeat]

A fun idea in theory but far too complicated. I won't be voting for this.

There is absolutely nothing complicated about this.

Either way, people need to realize one thing: If people want something to change or be more interesting, then by necessity, something has to change and people have to learn something new. If the objection to any change is "too complicated, I don't wanna learn something new!" then we may as well pack it up right now.

The only opposition I have is that I don't think it's fair to have the SoFE have to count 5 different voting methods... I'm not sure how many contested counts you've been around for, and how nasty they can be... but this is my objection to it.... it has nothing to do with Regional rights.

If there can be basic universal standards applied, I might be able to see beyond the potential problems. 

Teddy has said he doesn't mind that, if it came to it. But I don't think there's anything wrong with letting the region themselves handle the election just like they do every other regional office.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Also, just as an aside, I think I can say with some confidence that pretty much the entire Game Reform Committee is a fan of this proposal.

[Marokai Backbeat]

A fun idea in theory but far too complicated. The SoFE now has to keep track of five different voting booths, and potentially administer five separate kinds of elections (in addition to the Presidential election)? I won't be voting for this.

Yeah, I agree.  Sorry Jbrase.  And it real life, local/regional/state governments have often manipulated the distribution of voting booths to change election results in favor of certian parties....

The Amendment explicitly says the elections must remain fair and any new voting system suspected of being undemocratic could easily be challenged in court if it actually got to that point. I don't see how this is a realistic scenario.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Thinking on it, I do want to have an open-mind on this - but the reasons need to go beyond the 'regional rights' argument... which I think is a bit of a crock..

You consider yourself a pragmatist at heart, correct?

Look at it, then, this way: We can all agree that elections have been getting a bit more drab and not a lot has changed in Atlasia in a long time. We bleed old members, and have difficulty keeping ahold of new ones. There has been practically no campaigning for most Senate elections lately, and we seem set to repeat that same thing with the next at-large elections.

Alot of the proposals that have come and gone in the last two years have died because they were unable to garner support from both sides. Please, take a look at the Constitutional Convention sub-board just above us. Nothing came out of that because proposals were too far-reaching, (and some people a little too stubborn), to get enough support to pass.

This proposal is designed in some way as a way to bridge the support of Game Reformers, with the regionalists, who have in the past, stood in the way of reform because it was too radical, yet now, they support proposals like these. In terms of getting changes to pass, this is not only a regional rights proposal, but it is also one that is very pragmatic at heart.

Expansion of regional rights is certainly a motive here, but so it making the game more interesting, which this Amendment will certainly do if given a chance. It isn't complicated, it isn't complex. It does one very simple thing: It treats regional Senators as regional offices just like regional legislators and Governors.

Yes, I know Jbrase has good intentions, but I just don't trust some local governments to stay to the exact wording and not find loopholes. 

Perhaps I am too optimistic, I will grant you. But I do believe, as I'm sure Jbrase does, that there are ways to limit the risk, and any unfair voting system that benefits one party over another (which is less of a voting-system thing and more of a qualifications thing) can most definitely be challenged to the Supreme Court.

There must be some way to reduce that risk of abuse that would be acceptable for you to vote Aye. Regions already have the power to change the voting system for their regional offices. They aren't tweaking them to be unfair now, are they?

[Marokai Backbeat]

I don't see how this will make Atlasia more interesting. Now, it could certainly make it more confusing.

It's no more confusing than how regions elect their regional officials already and already have the power to change their voting system for those offices. All this does is put the regional Senate election under that same administration and authority. Pretending this is complicated at all is absurd.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I object.

Why?

[Marokai Backbeat]

Maybe he wants regions to run their own presidential elections too? Now that would be a huge reform! I bet you'd salivate at the mouth, Marokai!

Well this is hardly fair.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Are we talking about setting up an electoral college here? Because otherwise I don't see how the regions could administer the Presidential election.

I was going to ask that question.

Presumably the idea would be that each region counts their votes which are then presented to the SoFE to combine all the counts for the final vote.

...Which, unfortunately, is a really dumb idea. (And Duke knew I felt this way, because I posted this on the private forum. ) I mean, Bgwah wanted to talk about complicated? That is unnecessarily complicated. I fail to see how it's any sort of reform, since it does nothing but confuse, and just adds extra work for all involved. Under no argument could you say the President is a regional office, unlike you could with a regional Senator, and thus allowing individual counts for President is just stupid.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Then there is no need to separate the Senate elections from the Presidential. Either we operate with one ballot for all races, or a separate one for federal and regional governments. I don't see how my amendment had anything to do with an electoral college, all it does is consolidate ballots, which is a good thing. The election would remain the same other than who opens the booth.

Regional Senators should be regional offices. Subject to regional control like any other regional office. They are only connected to the presidential election because they are considered federal offices. There's a perfectly good reason for regional senate elections to be separate from the Presidential election, there isn't a perfectly good reason for breaking the Presidential ballot down to the regional level. It is confusing and causes more work for no reason and will only serve to torpedo the other change it shouldn't be sunk by.

It's not like people don't already have other regional offices to vote for at the same time as the Presidential election.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Anyone who can say there is a serious argument in favor of separating Presidential elections from downballot races needs their head checked.

What you're doing is pointless and will only serve as an excuse for the overall Amendment to go down in flames. Which, frankly, I suspect is the point, since as usual it's strictly the JCP popping up in opposition to any proposed change to any part of Atlasia's structure.

Regions are perfectly capable of easily and efficiently counting an election for a position that is conducted exclusively within their borders. Breaking the Presidential election down that way but still maintaining a national popular vote as the way we elect the President is only needlessly complicated and makes extra work for all involved for no reason.

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And we arrive at the fundamental disconnect. This is a game. Games are meant to be fun and remain consistently interesting. When they fail to be interesting, people change the rules to make it interesting again. We've changed the way we elect people in the past, yet now we seem forever frozen in the current system that absolutely nobody wants to change because it makes electioneering more difficult.
 

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It's a change for electoral purposes. I should've been more specific.

[Marokai Backbeat]

I am pretty darn certain I voted for Jbrase because I liked this proposal and that I have a pretty clear and consistent record of reform. To attempt to turn a policy debate into deceitful partisan attacks is un-unlike you but is disconnected from reality at its core.

All opposition voices here are from the JCP. It is not disconnected from reality when it is an observable fact. It is also a fact that your Dear Leader has been a consistent thorn in the side of any reform attempt for my entire life in Atlasia, and only very reluctantly went along with the new Constitution last year. If you voted for Jbrase because you just his proposal, you don't do a very good job of showing that since the very first thing you did in this thread is immediately oppose it.

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I am merely arguing exactly what Bgwah did a few pages ago: It is needlessly complicated and doesn't make sense. It isn't extra consolidation, it's only senseless make-work that will almost assuredly torpedo the Amendment if it makes it to referendum. It makes no sense to break the Presidential election down to the regional level when it remain a national vote. That same argument is not the case for Regional Senate elections. If you want to break the national vote for President down to the regional level, you should fundamentally alter the way we elect the President entirely, which should be done separately.

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By necessitating five different counts and additional make-work for the SoFE that has no need to actually happen.

[Marokai Backbeat]

1. Then the JCP knows what it is doing! Though considering Snowguy's most recent post in this thread you may want to revise your statement to be a little more, I don't know, truthful?

He supports the unnecessarily convoluted amended version that will have more opposition for no reason. Hip-hip hooray.

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It is not that difficult to grasp.

1. The President is elected by a national popular vote. Breaking it down to the regional level necessitates five different counts and then a combination of all the votes. The SoFE would then, if he was responsible at all, double check. This is extra work for no reason and doesn't make sense in the context of how we elect the President.

2. The regional Senator is elected within the boundaries of that region and thus, putting it under regional administration requires no extra work whatsoever and doesn't make anything more complicated because regions already hold separate unrelated elections in concert to the Presidential election anyway.

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It is insanely naive and irresponsible to suggest that the SoFE should simply take the regions word for it without checking the numbers themselves. In practice it is exactly what Bgwah described in his opposition to the original version. (Which, ironically, was ridiculous an untrue, but suddenly becomes entirely true against your version.)

[Marokai Backbeat]

For someone who bitches at me for allegedly being personal you're doing a remarkably good job at trying to only make this about me instead of responding to anything I'm actually saying about what you're proposing.

I have concerns over your proposal and am actually agreeing with Bgwah on something; being unnecessarily complicated is bad, and you're being unnecessarily complicated. Hell, if a region did change their voting system, you're asking a region to vote on regional and federal offices, with two different voting systems, in the same thread. I just don't understand the purpose of what you're trying to pass off here, and it doesn't make sense in the context of how we elect the President. That is all.

If the Senate wants to pass this version, go for it. But if there's any confusion or unnecessary extra work caused by it, don't be surprised when I say "I told you so." (Because you can rest assured I will be there to say "I told you so.")

[Marokai Backbeat]

Dude, aside from my usual comment about how I'm irritated at the JCP, I've done nothing but argue about the merits of the proposal at hand. It's not even my opinion, either. Considering the percentage of what I've dedicated in my posts here to the actual topic, it's objective.

Which, frankly, I've said my piece about. I can't be blamed if you preferred to accuse me of being some sore-lose madman in need of medication instead of respond to my argument against the amendment. If the Senate wants to pass this, go for it. If the Senate doesn't want to pass the amended version, also, super. All I care about it reform, and I desperately want to see any change at all. As the game's resident game reform freak, changes to the game that are as efficient as possible is my chief concern.

So I leave you guys to it. (And I hope that our back and forth has actually been useful to the others, since the Senate is hardly in a position to complain about something getting debate. )

[Marokai Backbeat]

As I said before, there is no ballot simplicity here. And even if for the sake of argument, there is, it comes at the cost of creating extra complication elsewhere. As a step to creating an electoral college system, it's fine, but as a way to elect a President through national popular vote, it is needless make-work.

[Marokai Backbeat]

The amount of abstentions is just getting silly, now.

[Marokai Backbeat]

And a round of applause for the JCP, ladies and gentlemen. (And a standing-O for Snowguy, please! The Senator that changed from Aye to Nay!)

[Marokai Backbeat]

just lobbing out attacks hoping one of them will stick?

Ah, I see you deleted that post now.

I deleted it in the hope that this wouldn't become a fight and I could just leave it at that. But you know what? I'll bite.

You've all become a horrible parody of yourselves. You're a left-wing version of the Populares and nothing more accurately describes you than that. You yourself openly admit to moving to a region to stack voting odds in Napoleon's favor. Napoleon openly admits to voting for BRTD solely because he wants people to be in power that support his agenda, as if that's not a silly shallow selfish reason. Your own President is quite literally laughed out of the for-profit university ban by you all for daring to suggest it should be more elaborate. And now, you unanimously vote down a Game Reform proposal.

Nothing, literally major change whatsoever, will ever get through your chokehold on the Senate. I remember a day when the JCP used to stand in stark contrast to the stubborn and old fashioned RPP, the stubborn, vicious, anti-reform party of the 2009 era. We all used to hate how they acted, and now you act the same.

Everything in this game is increasingly becoming a game of the JCP vs. everyone else. What do you guys even stand for anymore? As far as I can tell you don't stand for a goddamn thing, nothing aside from getting yourself into power, anyway.

The JCP used to be the party that bragged about their active citizens, that bragged about having the most ideas, that bragged about being the party of reform, but since late-last year, you've all become a hilarious hyper-partisan caricature of your former selves, preferring to be thuggishly hostile and dismissive of anything you don't come up with yourselves over being the calm and creative party of ideas you used to be.

It's nice to stand here and say, as Napoleon often does, that "well, why wouldn't I vote for someone who reflected my own interests?" But would the Senate really be a better place with 10 BRTDs? From the perspective of getting whatever the hell you wanted, maybe. But it wouldn't be a good Senate from a standpoint of activity or competence.

JCP dominance is not good for the game. Not from my feeble opinion, but from simple fact. You've become the anti-reform party. The pro-status quo party. The thuggishly hostile party, and the hyper partisan think-only-of-ourselves party. And you get away with it, because you have the numbers to get away with it. And it's almost as if you know this, so you flaunt it. You're the "neener neener" party. You're so much more flagrantly aggressive than you've all ever been before, and you feel no shame.

I can't imagine why any self-respecting person would be a member of your party. What you stand for is so thouroughly and empirically anti-thetical to progress, civility, and good government. You maintain your power through the sheer force of your monopoly. Does knowing you rule by leaving people no other choice make you all happy? I hope so, because you've got nothing else.

[Marokai Backbeat]

LOL.

This is fast becoming the JCP equivalent of Libertas' old penchant for "".

[Marokai Backbeat]

Ignoring the substance of what I say is a traditional JCP tactic. I'm glad to see it's still in use.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Yes. I'm lacking in substance. Let's see how far that obviously untrue line will get you. Where are the JCP's wealth of game reform proposals, again?

[Marokai Backbeat]

I thought the purpose of this bill was to increase participation in regional elections by allowing regions to control their own senatorial elections? Obviously, the information collected by Napoleon would show regional participation is lower, otherwise, what is the point of this bill?

This is what I regret not having pointed out myself. I don't understand what point Napoleon hoped to get across with his weird 'research.' It proved nothing except that there is already a problem, which is partially what necessitated this Amendment in the first place. It's like he's trying to use the current situation as proof that a proposed solution that's never gone into effect before will be a failure. It makes no sense.

[Marokai Backbeat]

Senate turnout would go down. You would have to follow my proposal if you wished to achieve that goal.

This is guesswork. Your weird attempt at trying to prove something that doesn't exist yet wouldn't work is really silly. We can't say one way or another if it would reduce or increase turnout. My bet would be that people still would actually care about electing a Senator and would show up to vote.

The problem with your proposal is that it doesn't make sense. Trying to break up a national election into 5 different voting blocs for no other reason than you just want to is ridiculous.

And besides, not only that, but I would even say that, for the sake of argument, turnout in general would go down regardless. It would also be needlessly complicated, adding a layer of extra make-work that wouldn't be there otherwise just because you feel the need to continue tying the regional Senate elections and the Presidential elections together.

AND, would it kill you people to actually give it, I don't know, a try? We have nothing to lose here. If it turns out to be really bad for a couple of election cycles, you can turn right away and fix it later. We're not making life decisions we'll be stuck with for the rest of eternity. We're never going to make any changes if you guys are never willing to step outside your comfort zones.