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Author Topic: One person simultaneously prez and veep  (Read 3922 times)
Jim Valvano
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« on: December 16, 2004, 07:37:30 pm »
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Suppose 270 electors made the same mistake the one from Minnesota did and accidently vote for the same guy twice. Does this mean that this person gets inaugurated on Jan. 20 as President and Vice-President? It would be possible I suppose, I imagine that the President Pro Tempore would likely preside more often than usual.

What would be funny is if the guy resigned as president, and then as vice president was sworn in again as president one minute later Cheesy
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« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2004, 07:51:33 pm »
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I always wondered about things like this. Someone fill me in on this stuff if you know:

Could someone be both President and Governor/Senator/Representative/Whatever?
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« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2004, 08:06:57 pm »
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The President and Vice President cannot be from the same state.
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J. J.
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« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2004, 08:48:18 pm »
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The President and Vice President cannot be from the same state.

That is NOT accurate.  The electors cannot vote for more than one candidate from the same state as the electors: 

Article XII

The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves ... .


There is the doctrine of separation of powers which would prohibit one person from serving in more than one branch of the Federal Government at the same time.
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J. J.

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« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2004, 09:24:04 pm »
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The President and Vice President cannot be from the same state.

That is NOT accurate.  The electors cannot vote for more than one candidate from the same state as the electors: 

Article XII

The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves ... .


There is the doctrine of separation of powers which would prohibit one person from serving in more than one branch of the Federal Government at the same time.

Wow, I just corrected someone earlier for making the same mistake. Like an hour before I posted that. That's what I get for posting when I'm sick.
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J. J.
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« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2004, 10:45:36 pm »
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Yeh, and it's really freaky phrasing as well.  It was Gerald Ford's excuse (misstating it) for joining the ticket in 1980, even though:

1.  He could have moved back to MI.

2.  Even if he hadn't and the CA electors had voted for someone else (Bush, for example), Ford still would have had enough to win.
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J. J.

"Actually, .. now that you mention it...." 
- Londo Molari

"Every government are parliaments of whores.
The trouble is, in a democracy the whores are us." - P. J. O'Rourke

"Wa sala, wa lala."

(Zulu for, "You snooze, you lose.")
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« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2004, 05:15:23 am »
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The same person can't serve as President and Vice-President. If the same man were elected to both office, there would be a vacancy in the office of the Vice-President, which would be filled under the terms of the 25th ammendment upon the President's swearing in.
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« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2004, 05:17:00 am »
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Yeh, and it's really freaky phrasing as well.  It was Gerald Ford's excuse (misstating it) for joining the ticket in 1980, even though:

1.  He could have moved back to MI.

Dick Cheney lived in Texas until he was named Bush's running mate, at which point he changed his registration to his Wyoming ranch.
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J. J.
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« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2004, 10:12:07 am »
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Yeh, and it's really freaky phrasing as well.  It was Gerald Ford's excuse (misstating it) for joining the ticket in 1980, even though:

1.  He could have moved back to MI.

Dick Cheney lived in Texas until he was named Bush's running mate, at which point he changed his registration to his Wyoming ranch.

Exactly.  It would have made a difference in that election, but in a few others, like 1980, it would not have.
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J. J.

"Actually, .. now that you mention it...." 
- Londo Molari

"Every government are parliaments of whores.
The trouble is, in a democracy the whores are us." - P. J. O'Rourke

"Wa sala, wa lala."

(Zulu for, "You snooze, you lose.")
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« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2004, 03:32:24 pm »
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Yeh, and it's really freaky phrasing as well.  It was Gerald Ford's excuse (misstating it) for joining the ticket in 1980, even though:

1.  He could have moved back to MI.

Dick Cheney lived in Texas until he was named Bush's running mate, at which point he changed his registration to his Wyoming ranch.

Exactly.  It would have made a difference in that election, but in a few others, like 1980, it would not have.

Even if Cheney was from Texas, the Republican electors could have elected him vice-president and abstained for president in Texas, so Bush would win in the house.
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Will F.D. People
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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2004, 04:03:48 pm »
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There is a school of thought that the original framers of the Constitution did not intend the Vice President to actually become President upon the death of the President. Instead, they intended the Vice President to assume the duties of the President but to remain Vice President. So yes, someone could be both President and Vice President at the same time.

Artice II, Section 1:

In Case of the Removal of the President from Office, or of his Death, Resignation, or Inability to discharge the Powers and Duties of the said Office, the Same shall devolve on the VicePresident, and the Congress may by Law provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected.

This does not say the VP becomes the President when the President dies; it says that the powers and duties of the President devolve to the VP. If there is neither a President nor a Vice President, Congress may be law determine who is Acting President.

From Article I, Section 3:

The Senate shall choose their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the Absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States.

Again this implies that when the President has died, the Vice President is still Vice President, but holds the powers normally held by the President. It could have said the the President pro tempore is for the case where the office of Vice President is vacant for any reason, but it does not.

Apparently when William Henry Harrison died -- the first president to die in office -- John Tyler insisted on being sworn in as President and refused mail addressed to him if it called him the "Acting President". He established the precedent that Vice Presidents actually become President upon the death of the President and don't just assume their powers.

The last time this was really important was in 1963 when President Kennedy was killed. It turns out (accoring to "The Death of a President" by William Manchester) that no one knew what the presidential oath of office was, and it was felt important by the Johnson party that LBJ actually take the oath of office as soon as possible. (The oath is actually given in the Constitution.) Manchester points out that it is reasonable to think that Johnson did not have to take the oath at all, since he had already taken the oath to be Vice President, so by the Constitution the duties of the president had lawfully already been transferred to him.





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« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2004, 09:59:38 pm »
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Will Minnesota do something about the guy who voted Edwards for both Prez and VP? Not like it will make a difference, but still. It's illegal.
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« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2004, 10:08:00 pm »
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It's illegal.

The electors can vote for whomever they chose. I know some states have laws against it (is Minnesota one?), but they're constiutionally questionable.
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A18
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« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2004, 10:17:15 pm »
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There is a school of thought that the original framers of the Constitution did not intend the Vice President to actually become President upon the death of the President. Instead, they intended the Vice President to assume the duties of the President but to remain Vice President. So yes, someone could be both President and Vice President at the same time.

Is this a historical fact, or just a school of thought?
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J. J.
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« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2004, 08:17:58 am »
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There is a school of thought that the original framers of the Constitution did not intend the Vice President to actually become President upon the death of the President. Instead, they intended the Vice President to assume the duties of the President but to remain Vice President. So yes, someone could be both President and Vice President at the same time.

Is this a historical fact, or just a school of thought?

I'm not certain, but before the 12th Amendment, every Elector had two votes.  The could cast both for one candidate.
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J. J.

"Actually, .. now that you mention it...." 
- Londo Molari

"Every government are parliaments of whores.
The trouble is, in a democracy the whores are us." - P. J. O'Rourke

"Wa sala, wa lala."

(Zulu for, "You snooze, you lose.")
Will F.D. People
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« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2004, 06:56:34 pm »
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I'm not certain, but before the 12th Amendment, every Elector had two votes.  The could cast both for one candidate.

In the Constitution it says in Article II, Section 1, Clause 3 (since superceded):

The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves.

I would interpret this to mean that an elector could not have voted for the same person twice. I would interpret this to mean that an electorwas required to vote for two distinct persons.

As for whether it was generally accepted that the Vice President merely acted as President upon the death of the President rather than actually becoming President, here is an interesting article:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/presidents_and_first_ladies/31466

While researching this I found another interesting tidbit that Tyler was the first President to have a veto overridden.

One thing I do not find in the Constitution at all is something that says when a VP becomes President, his term lasts until the end of the person whom he took over for. Article II, Section 1, Clause 1 says the term of office for a President (and Vice President) is 4 years. So if a VP becomes President, you could argue that he gets his own 4 years.
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« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2004, 09:53:26 am »
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I'm not certain, but before the 12th Amendment, every Elector had two votes.  The could cast both for one candidate.

In the Constitution it says in Article II, Section 1, Clause 3 (since superceded):

The Electors shall meet in their respective States, and vote by Ballot for two Persons, of whom one at least shall not be an Inhabitant of the same State with themselves.

I would interpret this to mean that an elector could not have voted for the same person twice. I would interpret this to mean that an electorwas required to vote for two distinct persons.
They were required to do so.
The question that's open to interpretation is whether they are still required now.
There's no language in the XIIth Amendment to supersede this.

Quote
As for whether it was generally accepted that the Vice President merely acted as President upon the death of the President rather than actually becoming President, here is an interesting article:

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/presidents_and_first_ladies/31466

While researching this I found another interesting tidbit that Tyler was the first President to have a veto overridden.

One thing I do not find in the Constitution at all is something that says when a VP becomes President, his term lasts until the end of the person whom he took over for. Article II, Section 1, Clause 1 says the term of office for a President (and Vice President) is 4 years. So if a VP becomes President, you could argue that he gets his own 4 years.
Well, it does say he's elected for a four year term, together with the president.
It also does say that if both offices are vacant, and Congress has appointed somebody else to fill their powers, he remains in office until the Electors have voted again (superseded by the XXVth)...this might be interpreted to mean that the term would have ended early, or at least that Congress had the right to legislate that such terms ended early...of course it never happened so it's entirely scientific.
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