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jmfcst
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« on: August 19, 2011, 01:23:35 pm »
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THE WILDEST STORIES YOU NEVER HEARD

Part IV
 
THE STORIES OF THE STARS

We've been enjoying exploring the constellations' original meanings for the past couple of weeks.

We spent time on the first four to show you how they, and their decans, tell the gospel story.

It's fascinating to wonder how men knew of God and His plans long before Moses wrote the Pentateuch.

Over 600 years before Moses wrote, Job lived.  When God spoke to Job, He mentioned constellations by name (Job 38:31 "Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades or loose the cords of Orion?

32 Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season, or can you guide the Bear with its children?"

Mazzoroth is an inclusive word that means "the Zodiac," or "the Stories of the Stars."  Imagine that! Six hundred years before Moses God spoke of the constellations as if they wer HIS design, and under HIS control!

So I hope you've enjoyed the introduction, and below I've provide just a teaser to show you how each constellation indicates another aspect of the gospel story.

VIRGO-"THE VIRGIN" A virgin will give birth to a man-child who will save the world.

LIBRA-"THE SCALES" Man has been weighed in the balance and found wanting.

SCORPIO-'THE SCORPION" The enemy of man will seek to sting his foot, but Christ will conquer him.

SAGITARIUS-"THE ARCHER" The "two-natured One" shall destroy the scorpion.

CAPRIOCORNUS -"THE GOAT" The ram sacrificed for sin gives way to living fishes (people)

AQUARIUS- "THE WATER POURER" The water pourer gives living water to the fishes.

PISCES-"THE FISHES" The two fishes are the people of God

ARIES-"THE LAMB" The lamb yields the Golden Fleece and provides a garment of righteousness for believers.

TAURUS-"THE BULL" The bull grows out of the Lamb. Christ is coming in glory and judgment.

GEMINI-"THE TWINS" Castor and Pollux (Acts 28:19) When the work of the hunter is finished there will be eternal rest.

CANCER-"THE CRAB" As the crab lives on land and in water, so the church lives on earth and in heaven, and is held fast by God.
LEO-"THE LION" The multi-headed Hydra, "The Abhorred One," is finally and ultimately destroyed by Christ, "the Lion of the Tribe of Judah."

 

It makes for fun reading, and if you want to explore it in a very readable book, easy to follow and yet filled with wonderful names and descriptions, get The Real Meaning of the Zodiac by Dr. James Kennedy. If you can't find it in book stores, you can find it on Amazon.com

 
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2011, 01:58:19 pm »
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That's quite funny; a bit of retcon with the Greek constellations combined with an ignorance of the different constellations imagined by Chinese astronomers.
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2011, 01:59:41 pm »
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what about ophiuchus?
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« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2011, 02:01:10 pm »
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That's quite funny; a bit of retcon with the Greek constellations combined with an ignorance of the different constellations imagined by Chinese astronomers.

theyre not greek, rather theyre ME (e.g. Egyptian)
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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2011, 02:03:14 pm »
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The Witness of The Stars is a great book on the subject

http://www.amazon.com/Witness-Stars-W-Bullinger/dp/1614270783/ref=pd_sim_b_1
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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2011, 02:05:09 pm »
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That's quite funny; a bit of retcon with the Greek constellations combined with an ignorance of the different constellations imagined by Chinese astronomers.

theyre not greek, rather theyre ME (e.g. Egyptian)

Still doesn't explain why everyone sees something different when we look in the sky; pattern seeking mammals that we are.
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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2011, 02:09:28 pm »
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God actually calls constellations by name in His rebuke of Job. "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?  Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?"    Mazzaroth is Hebrew for "the Zodiac."  It is "the story of the heavens."

The 4,000 year old Temple of Esneh in Egypt has a depiction of the 12 houses of the Zodiac, and the position of a Sphinx between Virgo and Leo indicates that at least 4,000 years ago the story of the heavens began with The Virgin and ended with The Lion.

Each of the 12 houses of the Zodiac has 3 decans, or lesser constellations, which complete the story.

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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.
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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2011, 02:11:20 pm »
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what about ophiuchus?

isnt in the zodiac, but it is mentioned.
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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2011, 02:38:18 pm »
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God actually calls constellations by name in His rebuke of Job. "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?  Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?"

Did he actually say Pleiades and Orion in the Hebrew version, or is this just how it was translated into English so that people reading an English Bible would understand what the heck God was saying? I'm quite sure that Moses and his people would refer to them as something else.

Quote
Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?" Mazzaroth is Hebrew for "the Zodiac."  It is "the story of the heavens."

Well, some people think that. Others aren't sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazzaroth


More importantly, how do you know that this interpretation of the Zodiac as telling some kind of story relevant to the Christian God is even accurate? How do you know that the zodiac weren't some other religion's thing and some people who would like it to fit into their own haven't co-opted it for the Christian religion? I mean, if these zodiac constellations were important symbols to Christianity don't you think there would be a more explicit mention of that in the Bible?

Also, being the astronomy buff that you are, you are no doubt aware that the stars are actually moving and that in time the positions of the stars that make up these constellations will change relative to one another and so what we see will also change, right? If these zodiac are meant to be some kind of gospel sign, why would they change?

http://news.discovery.com/space/changing-constellations-50000-years.html
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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2011, 02:51:57 pm »
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God actually calls constellations by name in His rebuke of Job. "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?  Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?"

Did he actually say Pleiades and Orion in the Hebrew version, or is this just how it was translated into English so that people reading an English Bible would understand what the heck God was saying? I'm quite sure that Moses and his people would refer to them as something else.

Quote
Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?" Mazzaroth is Hebrew for "the Zodiac."  It is "the story of the heavens."

Well, some people think that. Others aren't sure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazzaroth

see context in red...the context is star patterns

---


More importantly, how do you know that this interpretation of the Zodiac as telling some kind of story relevant to the Christian God is even accurate? How do you know that the zodiac weren't some other religion's thing and some people who would like it to fit into their own haven't co-opted it for the Christian religion? I mean, if these zodiac constellations were important symbols to Christianity don't you think there would be a more explicit mention of that in the Bible?

Also, being the astronomy buff that you are, you are no doubt aware that the stars are actually moving and that in time the positions of the stars that make up these constellations will change relative to one another and so what we see will also change, right? If these zodiac are meant to be some kind of gospel sign, why would they change?

http://news.discovery.com/space/changing-constellations-50000-years.html

I highly doubt the context of Job is 50,000 years ago.  For all intents and purposes, the stars of the zodiac are in the same configuration as they were in the time of Moses, or Job, or when the Temple of Esneh in Egypt was built.
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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2011, 05:50:55 pm »
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I highly doubt the context of Job is 50,000 years ago.  For all intents and purposes, the stars of the zodiac are in the same configuration as they were in the time of Moses, or Job, or when the Temple of Esneh in Egypt was built.

You're missing the point - how will it be relevant to people 50,000 years from now, though?
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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2011, 11:38:47 pm »
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I highly doubt the context of Job is 50,000 years ago.  For all intents and purposes, the stars of the zodiac are in the same configuration as they were in the time of Moses, or Job, or when the Temple of Esneh in Egypt was built.

You're missing the point - how will it be relevant to people 50,000 years from now, though?

you're missing the point - the bible's timeline for the future may very well be much much shorter than 50k years...
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2011, 08:28:34 am »
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I highly doubt the context of Job is 50,000 years ago.  For all intents and purposes, the stars of the zodiac are in the same configuration as they were in the time of Moses, or Job, or when the Temple of Esneh in Egypt was built.

You're missing the point - how will it be relevant to people 50,000 years from now, though?

you're missing the point - the bible's timeline for the future may very well be much much shorter than 50k years...

Ah, that's right - you have an irrational belief that the world is going to end based on the predictions of people who knew next to nothing about the real scope of the universe.

Anywho, you completely ignored this, which is really the more important portion:

Quote
More importantly, how do you know that this interpretation of the Zodiac as telling some kind of story relevant to the Christian God is even accurate? How do you know that the zodiac weren't some other religion's thing and some people who would like it to fit into their own haven't co-opted it for the Christian religion? I mean, if these zodiac constellations were important symbols to Christianity don't you think there would be a more explicit mention of that in the Bible?

Care to respond?
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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2011, 09:12:39 am »
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Quote
More importantly, how do you know that this interpretation of the Zodiac as telling some kind of story relevant to the Christian God is even accurate? How do you know that the zodiac weren't some other religion's thing and some people who would like it to fit into their own haven't co-opted it for the Christian religion? I mean, if these zodiac constellations were important symbols to Christianity don't you think there would be a more explicit mention of that in the Bible?

Care to respond?

there are many more passages in the bible explaining how the stars are witnesses about God.  But now their story takes a back seat to scripture itself.  And it wasnt like all the people in the near east were Christian well before Moses was even born.  I'll post some of the scriptures when I have more time, have to run now.
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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2011, 10:44:42 am »
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So, wait, why is it that we should ignore every single other system of parceling up the heavens into discrete units again?  If the Bible is relevant for all the peoples of the earth (and it is), it seems rather bigoted of it to reveal itself through one particular system; rather, if something about the particular configuration of stars says something about Jesus, it should be somehow objectively verifiable, or at least be present in every possible system of dividing up the heavens.
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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2011, 07:41:34 am »
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I am pretty swamped but I intend to return later to post some scriptural references to the stars and their importance...but I just wanted to drop by real quickly to say this topic concerning the meaning of the Zodiac is NOT doctrinal, hence the title (this was just one sermon in a series of sermons discussing non-doctrinal topics)

take care
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I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
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« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2011, 01:42:43 pm »
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The most interesting part of this thread is that if someone else had posted it jmfcst would have flamed him for entertaining such mystic hooey.
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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2011, 09:50:20 am »
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The most interesting part of this thread is that if someone else had posted it jmfcst would have flamed him for entertaining such mystic hooey.

why would I do that when it explicitly stated that part of the their purpose is to be for signs:

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

and they were used as signs to signal the birth of the Messiah:

Mat 2:1 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”
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Do not fight with one another over my banning.  I've enjoyed the time I have spent with all of you, but the time really has come for me to leave.  It is what I want.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9Y_GLT4_9I

I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
Coming for to carry me home,
A band of angels coming after me,
Coming for to carry me home.

Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home.
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« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2011, 06:07:07 pm »
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That's quite funny; a bit of retcon with the Greek constellations combined with an ignorance of the different constellations imagined by Chinese astronomers.

theyre not greek, rather theyre ME (e.g. Egyptian)

Mesopotamian actually.  The earliest Egyptian astronomical texts that have been found don't concern themselves with constellations at all, but rather with the heliacal rising of 36 individual stars that marked the start of their ten day decans.  The Greeks then later borrowed the constellations from the Babylonians largely intact, and it wasn't until the days of the Ptolemies that the Egyptians made use of the constellations.

Interestingly enough, the earliest cuneiform texts found that mention constellations include 18 zodiac signs. Some of the difference is due to constellations that today are considered near but not on the Zodiac (Orion, Perseus, Auriga, Andromeda). Others are considered part of other constellations. The Pleiades, which started off the oldest known Mesopotamian zodiac, is part of Taurus now, and The Swallow is split between the constellations Pisces and Pegasus. Of the remaining 12 most have similar meanings, but a few do not, most prominently Virgo. We don't have any evidence for a 12 sign Zodiac being in use earlier than around 700 BC, though that isn't to say they might not have been in use earlier as absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.  What we do have evidence for is that the idea of 12 immutable Zodiac constellations known since earliest days is pure bunk.

Bullinger did well with what he had available to him, but a century of additional archaeological work have rendered his theorizing about the stars obsolete.
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