Game Reform Proposal Committee
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Author Topic: Game Reform Proposal Committee  (Read 3742 times)
Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #50 on: September 04, 2011, 06:35:41 AM »

Sadly, I accept this decision.

This could have been a real chance for reform options... I didn't create it to achieve nothing.

I had hoped that this panel would provide legislative measures to aid in their reforms.

I had avoided commenting on specifics so as not to prejudice views.


Again, thanks to the Panel for their dedication.
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MASHED POTATOES. VOTE!
Kalwejt
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« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2011, 08:11:52 AM »

Marokai made some valid points, I admit.

A lot of people lost interest in game. Not only on federal level. In Southeast, there are just two legislators left and we can't even start to vote on a damn thing.

Elections aren't fine. Finding candidates really interested in doing something is more and more impossible. However, the blame is totally mutual. JCP may chase candidates literally from the street, but right fail to provide an opposition as well.

Senate? With all respect to my former colleagues, one of the reasons I retired was frustration with slow work and hostility toward any more original ideas.
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🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸
shua
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« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2011, 11:50:22 AM »

I'm sorry you feel that way. The commission took on a lot at once, and had some good ideas. If they had presented proposals to the Senate, a few get could get somewhere. The commission members themselves didn't speak with one voice - not that that's a bad thing, but it makes it hard to judge support for the recommendations.  A lot of recommendations I didn't like I'll admit, but some I do - so from my perspective it was worthwhile.
I think the votes for Jbrase's idea are there, if the Senate can reach an agreement on some of the details.
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Kaine for Senate '18
benconstine
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« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2011, 12:10:06 PM »

Elections are also broken when a party chooses to vote for an entirely inactive zombie recruited at the last possible second over a liberal, very active candidate not that I'm bitter or anything.
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Cincinnatus
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« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2011, 08:10:40 PM »

Are we considering this dead?  Is anyone left on this commission that could actually participate beside myself (*cough belgian?).  I'm going to assume the President is pulling the plug on this, unless he appoints another person(s?).
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Yelnoc
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« Reply #55 on: September 05, 2011, 09:17:26 PM »

Are we considering this dead?  Is anyone left on this commission that could actually participate beside myself (*cough belgian?).  I'm going to assume the President is pulling the plug on this, unless he appoints another person(s?).
If I need to, I'll tie up this last loose in before leaving for good.  Though I don't see the point.  This Senate does not want to pass any reform, as evidenced by the failure of Jbrase's bill, which is tamer then just about everything discussed in this thread.  I suppose the federal government's consensus is that reform is unnecessary?
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Napoleon
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« Reply #56 on: September 05, 2011, 09:37:28 PM »

Are we considering this dead?  Is anyone left on this commission that could actually participate beside myself (*cough belgian?).  I'm going to assume the President is pulling the plug on this, unless he appoints another person(s?).
If I need to, I'll tie up this last loose in before leaving for good.  Though I don't see the point.  This Senate does not want to pass any reform, as evidenced by the failure of Jbrase's bill, which is tamer then just about everything discussed in this thread.  I suppose the federal government's consensus is that reform is unnecessary?
Did you read my report?
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Yelnoc
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« Reply #57 on: September 05, 2011, 09:56:20 PM »

Are we considering this dead?  Is anyone left on this commission that could actually participate beside myself (*cough belgian?).  I'm going to assume the President is pulling the plug on this, unless he appoints another person(s?).
If I need to, I'll tie up this last loose in before leaving for good.  Though I don't see the point.  This Senate does not want to pass any reform, as evidenced by the failure of Jbrase's bill, which is tamer then just about everything discussed in this thread.  I suppose the federal government's consensus is that reform is unnecessary?
Did you read my report?
I could have; if I did it must not have made an impression.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2011, 10:05:45 PM »

Are we considering this dead?  Is anyone left on this commission that could actually participate beside myself (*cough belgian?).  I'm going to assume the President is pulling the plug on this, unless he appoints another person(s?).
If I need to, I'll tie up this last loose in before leaving for good.  Though I don't see the point.  This Senate does not want to pass any reform, as evidenced by the failure of Jbrase's bill, which is tamer then just about everything discussed in this thread.  I suppose the federal government's consensus is that reform is unnecessary?
Did you read my report?
I could have; if I did it must not have made an impression.

If you had, you would see why the amendment as proposed was not suitable as practical policy and that it was your own commission's chair who made compromise impossible.
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Yelnoc
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« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2011, 10:08:39 PM »

Are we considering this dead?  Is anyone left on this commission that could actually participate beside myself (*cough belgian?).  I'm going to assume the President is pulling the plug on this, unless he appoints another person(s?).
If I need to, I'll tie up this last loose in before leaving for good.  Though I don't see the point.  This Senate does not want to pass any reform, as evidenced by the failure of Jbrase's bill, which is tamer then just about everything discussed in this thread.  I suppose the federal government's consensus is that reform is unnecessary?
Did you read my report?
I could have; if I did it must not have made an impression.

If you had, you would see why the amendment as proposed was not suitable as practical policy and that it was your own commission's chair who made compromise impossible.
Hmm?  Well, why don't you ask Polnut for Belgian's seat, and join the brainstorming?
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #60 on: September 05, 2011, 10:47:39 PM »
« Edited: September 05, 2011, 10:51:22 PM by Marokai Breakneck »

Are we considering this dead?  Is anyone left on this commission that could actually participate beside myself (*cough belgian?).  I'm going to assume the President is pulling the plug on this, unless he appoints another person(s?).
If I need to, I'll tie up this last loose in before leaving for good.  Though I don't see the point.  This Senate does not want to pass any reform, as evidenced by the failure of Jbrase's bill, which is tamer then just about everything discussed in this thread.  I suppose the federal government's consensus is that reform is unnecessary?
Did you read my report?
I could have; if I did it must not have made an impression.

If you had, you would see why the amendment as proposed was not suitable as practical policy and that it was your own commission's chair who made compromise impossible.

We had this argument over a very long period of time and your concerns over the Amendment as it was were silly and petty. What you proposed would've made it more complicated for very little reason. The Amendment did one thing and one thing only: It made Regional Senators a regional offices for electoral purposes. Elected within the bounds of one region.

Trying to break down the Presidential race that way was stupid if we still elect the President via a national popular vote. It made no sense to break it apart into five different pieces just because you wanted to. It would make more sense if you were trying to alter the way we elect the President, but your idea wasn't anything but poisoning the well.

Edit: Also, I'm not a Senator. I highly doubt anything failed because of me.
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Ban my account ffs!
snowguy716
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« Reply #61 on: September 05, 2011, 11:38:06 PM »

Marokai... you can hardly point fingers at others calling their proposals "too complicated"... your proposals and wishes would make this game a bureaucratic nightmare and would achieve nothing more than not changing a thing would... because people would still be leaving.  Except they'd be mad at you instead of the JCP.

What I said regarding senate reform was not that I don't think there should be reform, but that if there is, it should come from the senate.  Trying to enforce activity requirements and voting requirements is anti-democratic.  If people don't like their senators, they should vote them out.  I have the same stance regarding term limits.

Game reform should either come piece by piece, slowly over time so we can adjust to it (I know... very conservative of me.. in the real tradition of political conservatism) or we should just re-roll the dice and completely remake the game.

What you are doing is senselessly adding to without taking away.  The game will become over-regulated and drive people away.

I also don't believe there should be rules governing parties or intra-party primaries.  Those should be up to the people of that party.  If a party wants the input of all members on every decision, good luck... but that's their prerogative.  If a party wants a structure where a dictator dictates who gets to run... so be it.  You, Marokai, should have no say in what the JCP does... and I should have no say in what the RPP does... except that I will and do work with members of the RPP in the senate to come to a compromise on issues of importance.

I've said it before:  Game reform isn't my cup of tea.  But maybe I should drink a cup of game reform tea and propose a few ideas.

I think we need to restart by defining the problems we face:

1)  The added realism of the game.  I voted for you to be Game Manager because I felt you would be good at integrating real life events into the game.  That is a KEY position in the game, and I think you're doing a good job at it.

2)  Game and real life events are not being integrated into the senate.  Neither are cabinet or presidential policy proposals.

I think a lot of that simply has to do with the physical structure of the forum.  It's hard to keep up with threads made by the various cabinet officials.

Perhaps as part of game reform, we could petition Dave to create child boards in the government section for "executive" and "legislative" issues much like when we took the regional chambers out of the main thread.  The main thread could then be opened up to all of Atlasia and used by the GM to detail events that are happening, protests that people might have, etc. 

I suggest keeping those kinds of things in the forefront because that will allow people to be more active.  If they want to know what's going on in the senate, they go into the senate childboard.  If they wanna know what the President and his cabinet are doing, they go there.  If they want to protest, they can PM senators or they can create a thread in the general government area. 

That is a simple structural change that would reduce clutter and allow people to be more involved simply by clearly marking a place where they can make their concerns known.

Another reform to make the GM's job easier might be to reduce economic reports to a weekly basis.  You could provide day-to-day details within this weekly report... but if you don't have time on Monday-Thursday, you could get it all done Friday.  The report could be posted to both the legislative and executive child boards.  A senate rule could be made that requires senators to "sign" such reports.  That is a rule that would increase knowledge of the game without putting too much of a burden on senators.

I think a big issue is that there is no accountability in this game... and it is almost impossible to fix that.  Trying to break up the JCP isn't going to make that change.

It's because when the senate passes a bill, there are no consequences.  I mean... my same-sex classroom pilot program was passed earlier this summer and schools have started for much of the nation.  How is it going?  Is it a flop?

Maybe we should have a game rule that all legislation needs to be reviewed once or multiple times after it is passed into law.  The GM or PPT or Secretary of the senate could be responsible for maintaining a rolling list of legislation and the date by which it must be followed up upon to ensure we are getting results for our work.. be them good or bad.  If, for example, it was found that separate sex classrooms had no effect or even a negative effect upon re-examination of the bill, we could amend the bill to remove the section.

Those are a few ideas I just came up with while I was typing this.  I don't know if they're good or not.. or whether they go far enough or not...

But we need to find ways to ensure accountability in the game without making it a regulation nightmare.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #62 on: September 06, 2011, 12:04:48 AM »

Marokai... you can hardly point fingers at others calling their proposals "too complicated"... your proposals and wishes would make this game a bureaucratic nightmare and would achieve nothing more than not changing a thing would... because people would still be leaving.  Except they'd be mad at you instead of the JCP.

You keep saying this. That my proposed changes would somehow make everything some procedural thicket. But you've yet to actually show how that's the case. Most of my proposals are small changes. Changing things around here, adding a little program there, setting up the option for something else here. I'm not asking for permissions slips and doctor's forms.

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My ideas regarding the Senate are the only really radical thing I propose, and I understand if people dislike them, but it's disingenuous to suggest that people are going to turn around and carefully consider their Senate options. Your party voted in lockstep. BRTD, a person who didn't even declare, got the most votes of all Senate candidates. He didn't get those votes because he had a sudden groundswell of support in the eleventh hour. He got those voters because those voters were told to go vote for him from on high. I like your naivete. I think it's innocent and sweet. But I don't share it.

I see nothing wrong with consecutive term limits at the very least.

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Buddy you don't have to convince me in an effort to hit the refresh button on the entire game. I proposed such a thing over a year ago. But not enough people share the desire for such a dramatic new beginning.

I've no objection to game reform coming piece by piece. But what pieces are acceptable? How teeny tiny small do they have to be? Jbrase's proposal was a very very modest idea! You can't get any more minor than that!

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People are leaving and lack interest already. The status-quo doesn't work anymore.

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This is where my biggest issue with your argument lies. The parties can take advantage of these things if they want to, but all my proposals do is allow the parties to take advantage of that infrastructure if they so desire. Bgwah talks and talks about how he wants to see intra-party politics take to the forefront in a new political era. Okay, fine. Let's actually do that. Right now there is no structure for that.

My caucus proposal does nothing more than allow people to form them and have them formally appear on the ballot. How is that interference? How does that allow me to meddle in the JCP? It doesn't. People join them of their own choosing. It creates a sort of "party within a party" that actually has meaning.

How does your party deciding to have a primary mean I'm meddling in the JCP? Again, it doesn't. Such a primary would be your parties choice. It would just actually be legally binding. Which it has to be if people actually want intra-party politics to be a 'thing' that actually exists.

You keep acting like I'm trying to put forward proposals that micromanage every aspect of the game. I'm not. I'm just trying to find ways to flesh out new aspects of the game people either haven't considered, or say they want, but don't make happen. My philosophy is that, if people want change, then something has to actually change!

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That is why my thread, and the SoEA's threads, and up until Yelnoc's resignation, the SoIA's thread, are stickied. If people don't read them I can't really do anything about that. It's not like they're hard to find. 

Threads for all of these things already exist. I don't understand how we get anywhere by creating a flurry of childboards. I think people know where the Senate is, by now. It's not hard to find.

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The GM can manage itself, thank you..

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I am not trying to break up the JCP. I'm trying to make positions meaningful and trying to actually find ways to create intra-party politics. Yes, I think it would be wonderful if the JCP got cut down about 20 members, but my proposals aren't about that.

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I will happily try to look into such things for you, since as GM, this is my job. But I do need help. If people want my attention on something specific, they often PM me about their issue in particular, as Jbrase did earlier today.

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You accuse me of micromanaging but an awful lot of what you're proposing here is doing the exact same thing. If the Senate wants to do these things, nothing is stopping them. The problem isn't the lack of mechanisms to re-evaluate legislation, the problem is you Senators lack the desire to actually do so. Nothing is stopping you from, right at this very second, going back and looking over a whole lot of legislation, and repealing it or consolidating it or replacing it.

I've done it myself plenty of times. I had hoped I'd be in the Senate right now to do the same thing once again, but apparently the voters of the Northeast didn't want such silly efficiency.

You need to be more open-minded to my proposals. All I've gotten from you guys lately is that you just hate everything that doesn't come from you. Bgwah wrote a bill making special elections occur in regional Senate seats when there's a vacancy. This passed with absolutely no fanfare. The ease at which things pass, as long as they're from you, is crazy. But when they come from outsiders, they treated as crazy radical things that no one in their right mind would ever consider.

When my ideas are given a fair shake, they get a lot of intrigued looks and supportive comments. My problem is that I don't think your party really wants anything to change. Bgwah has been a thorn in the side to reform for years, and it makes perfect sense why your party wouldn't want major changes to anything when you're on top. I think the only time you're open to change is when someone on your team can take credit for it.

You can lambast my ideas for being too wonky or complicated or procedural all you like, but the fact is this: Any change is going to require people to learn or adapt to something different. Any change is going to require new procedure somewhere. There is no magic pill here.
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